Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Objectively, that analysis is 100% correct.

Hardly objective if Cameron gets to not take any blame?

 

[mcfc1632]

Obviously you're being a WUM in that post.
However I think now is the time for you to state unequivocally that the final Brexit deal and the consequences thereof are now entirely the responsibility of the British Government.
A post to that effect from your good self would be appreciated.

Certainly not being a WUM - you are missing the point I am making - and as others are as well I will put it down to my explanation

I have just posted that from the this point on we enter the implementation phase and the success or failure of Brexit from January 2020 is entirely on Johnson. So I hope that addresses your request at the end of your post.

The other points that I am making are that:

a) From an ardent Leaver POV - much recognition must be given to the simple fact that without Corbyn - and as explained also May and at a supporting act level Gina Miller and others - then we would not have reached a position where a genuine Brexit could be possible. What has unravelled since the referendum is that there is sooooo much pro-Remain bias at Westminster that a genuine Brexit could never have been secured without the components of a 'perfect storm' falling into place

Events and people such as Corbyn, May and Miller, are part of that perfect storm and we Leavers should all be glad that these things all aligned as they have - it has been an improbable ride and we have needed 'events dear boy' to fall our way.

b) From a Remainer POV - then an assessment of how events have unfolded will identify no end of opportunities for things to have fallen differently. I

f I was an ardent Remainer I would be utterly fucked off at how many opportunities have been missed to either stop Brexit or dilute it to an outcome worse than Remaining. People are objecting to me introducing Corbyn's role into the narrative - but they are happy to emphasise Cameron's.

My point is that they are examples of people being responsible for a potentially genuine Brexit to occur at both ends of the timeline.

Yes - had Cameron never called the vote then the potential for a genuine Brexit would have been stopped (never started). Before Cameron you can point to the arrogance of Tusk.

And also, at the other end of this phase, it is true that had Corbyn allowed the government of NU or done a number of things differently - then the potential for a genuine Brexit would have been stymied

In between there has been a need for May to fuck up and other characters (and also fate and good fortune) to play their parts.

I am not blaming Corbyn alone - in fact I am mightily relieved for the part he has played - but if I was a Remainer - I would perhaps be turning recognition of his level of responsibility into the apportionment of blame

 

[west didsblue]

All you are now left with is a potential 'I told you so' moment if the predictions of doom and gloom come to pass, the sourest of sour grapes. Unfortunately for you, now that the sycophantic sideshow in Parliament has been removed, a mutually beneficial FTA will be agreed and the economy will plough on.

Hope you’re right.
If that’s the case we will never know if we would have been better off remaining from an economic perspective.
One thing that Brexit seems set to achieve is to energise the independence and unification elements of Scotland and NI respectively along with disillusionment from the unionist side in those countries.

 

[blueinsa]

In reality the consequences of Brexit are fully owned by the Tories and those that voted them in.

More than happy to own it.

 

[hgblue]

Hope you’re right.
If that’s the case we will never know if we would have been better off remaining from an economic perspective.
One thing that Brexit seems set to achieve is to energise the independence and unification elements of Scotland and NI respectively along with disillusionment from the unionist side in those countries.

Unless there is a massive downturn, not replicated anywhere else, you will never prove that Brexit has had a positive or negative impact, if as I suspect, the economy continues to grow at roughly the same rate. As for union, once we've left the EU the case for Scottish independence becomes a lot more complicated. In my opinion, this is the real reason the SNP are in such a hurry, especially if my first sentence is correct and the economy is largely unaffected, because just as the proponents of Brexit will take a hit if the economy does take a dive, those who've tried to frighten people to death with talk of 'disaster' and 'catastrophe', will have their judgement and good faith called into question.

 

[Metal Biker]

All you are now left with is a potential 'I told you so' moment if the predictions of doom and gloom come to pass, the sourest of sour grapes. Unfortunately for you, now that the sycophantic sideshow in Parliament has been removed, a mutually beneficial FTA will be agreed and the economy will plough on.

And there will be some actively hoping and willing that 'doom' to materialise, just so they can get the chance to say it.

 

[mcfc1632]

Having never been in power I don't think corbyn gets to take any credit or blame for Brexit. That's like blaming Iain Duncan Smith for the Iraq war, or Michael Foot for sinking the Belgrano.

I understand your point - but I do see it as too simplistic - and I do not mean that word in a critical manner - certainly mean no offence.

'In power' - you mean in government - but that is not entirely a valid position to take in this situation.

To bring context -if 'in power' means positioned to take and effect decisions - who was more 'in power' in the Autumn of 2019?

I would strongly argue that any objective assessment would evidence that an 'Opposition alliance' rather than the UK government were 'in power' during that period. Supported by a biased Speaker, they were able to introduce or amend legislation at will and to prevent any policy that the UK government wished to introduced.

and that is the key point that I am making - given your own view that to be responsible one has to be 'in power' - they were

And all that was required for a VONC to be successful, leading to a 2nd referendum being called and Brexit potentially stopped - without any doubt - was for Corbyn to place that outcome ahead of his personal ambition

I am delighted that he did not - if I was an ardent Remainer I would be feeling lest positive.

Not aimed at you - but some on here just seem to be like Corbyn - perpetual protestors.

I think that what I am setting out (perhaps not explaining well enough though) is patently factual

 

[Saddleworth2]

Eloquence personified

isn't that a line from Fawlty Towers?

 

[Len Rum]

Certainly not being a WUM - you are missing the point I am making - and as others are as well I will put it down to my explanation

I have just posted that from the this point on we enter the implementation phase and the success or failure of Brexit from January 2020 is entirely on Johnson. So I hope that addresses your request at the end of your post.

The other points that I am making are that:

a) From an ardent Leaver POV - much recognition must be given to the simple fact that without Corbyn - and as explained also May and at a supporting act level Gina Miller and others - then we would not have reached a position where a genuine Brexit could be possible. What has unravelled since the referendum is that there is sooooo much pro-Remain bias at Westminster that a genuine Brexit could never have been secured without the components of a 'perfect storm' falling into place

Events and people such as Corbyn, May and Miller, are part of that perfect storm and we Leavers should all be glad that these things all aligned as they have - it has been an improbable ride and we have needed 'events dear boy' to fall our way.

b) From a Remainer POV - then an assessment of how events have unfolded will identify no end of opportunities for things to have fallen differently. I

f I was an ardent Remainer I would be utterly fucked off at how many opportunities have been missed to either stop Brexit or dilute it to an outcome worse than Remaining. People are objecting to me introducing Corbyn's role into the narrative - but they are happy to emphasise Cameron's.

My point is that they are examples of people being responsible for a potentially genuine Brexit to occur at both ends of the timeline.

Yes - had Cameron never called the vote then the potential for a genuine Brexit would have been stopped (never started). Before Cameron you can point to the arrogance of Tusk.

And also, at the other end of this phase, it is true that had Corbyn allowed the government of NU or done a number of things differently - then the potential for a genuine Brexit would have been stymied

In between there has been a need for May to fuck up and other characters (and also fate and good fortune) to play their parts.

I am not blaming Corbyn alone - in fact I am mightily relieved for the part he has played - but if I was a Remainer - I would perhaps be turning recognition of his level of responsibility into the apportionment of blame

I understand ( although not necessarily agree).
I would however respectfully request that you answer the question I posed - that having reached this point the British Government are now fully responsible and accountable for the deal the UK finally concludes with the EU.
Thanking you in advance.

 

[mcfc1632]

Sycophancy personified.

Bless - just paying due recognition

I hope, that at some future point, to have the opportunity to witness you post something that suggests that you are also due some similar measure of recognition.

 

[mcfc1632]

Funny watching the unfettered Brexit bullshitter tying himself in knots.
On the one hand thanking Corbyn for Brexit whilst blaming him for a potential hard Brexit (which has now been clarified as meaning a proper Brexit) and also acknowledging that there’s a good chance a second ref would have stopped it and blaming / thanking him for not making that happen as well. In summary, on the off chance Brexit is a roaring success, it’s thanks to Johnson but if it’s a fuck up it’s down to Corbyn for not stopping it.

In reality the consequences of Brexit are fully owned by the Tories and those that voted them in.

Sorry - it is you tying yourself up in knots

I have clearly said that from this point on ant failure of implementation will be down to Johnson

I have clearly said that - especially if I was a Remainer - that the fact that we arrive at this point where a genuine (aka hard for some) Brexit is a possible outcome is in no small measure the responsibility (blame if you like) of Corbyn and others.

Three cheers to Jezza I say, Hip Hip...….!!!

P.s. - why not try reading and assessing rather than just jump in and embarrass yourself - why not make that a New Year's promise;-)

 

[mcfc1632]

Objectively, that analysis is 100% correct.

I suggest that is because you are reading what is posted with - well objectively

I cannot see how - objectively - it can be considered as anything but correct

 

[mcfc1632]

All you are now left with is a potential 'I told you so' moment if the predictions of doom and gloom come to pass, the sourest of sour grapes. Unfortunately for you, now that the sycophantic sideshow in Parliament has been removed, a mutually beneficial FTA will be agreed and the economy will plough on.

Sad - that when left with the prospect of sour grapes is your only Remaining benefit - even that is likely to be taken from you

 

[mcfc1632]

Hardly objective if Cameron gets to not take any blame?

I have made Cameron responsible (blamed) at the start and Corbyn at the end

 

[west didsblue]

Sorry - it is you tying yourself up in knots

I have clearly said that from this point on ant failure of implementation will be down to Johnson

I have clearly said that - especially if I was a Remainer - that the fact that we arrive at this point where a genuine (aka hard for some) Brexit is a possible outcome is in no small measure the responsibility (blame if you like) of Corbyn and others.

Three cheers to Jezza I say, Hip Hip...….!!!

P.s. - why not try reading and assessing rather than just jump in and embarrass yourself - why not make that a New Year's promise;-)

Really?

Hindsight is indeed 20/20

And it clearly shows how self-serving Corbyn was

Any hard Brexit outcome will be largely on him

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Hope you’re right.
If that’s the case we will never know if we would have been better off remaining from an economic perspective.
One thing that Brexit seems set to achieve is to energise the independence and unification elements of Scotland and NI respectively along with disillusionment from the unionist side in those countries.

We have to all do our utmost to make it work, Government and citizens alike. If we don’t, our status as a nation will be irreversibly diminished imo. Rejoining on our knees will not be a good look.

 

[west didsblue]

We have to all do our utmost to make it work, Government and citizens alike. If we don’t, our status as a nation will be irreversibly diminished imo. Rejoining on our knees will not be a good look.

Indeed we do.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Having never been in power I don't think corbyn gets to take any credit or blame for Brexit. That's like blaming Iain Duncan Smith for the Iraq war, or Michael Foot for sinking the Belgrano.

All the opposition leaders and a large number of their MPs have to take some blame for Brexit for supporting a general election, whilst trailing hugely in the polls and getting absolutely nothing in return. The SNP supported it purely to shore up their own, one trick naked ambition. The Liberals have no idea why they supported it unless Swinson was actually suffering from delusions and thought she could be PM, whilst Corbyn supported it for god knows what reason, unless he was a similarly deluded as Swinson. In many ways it is probably the best outcome that none of these charlatans will be negotiating anything as they appear incapable of knowing when they hold the whip hand!
Johnson was desperate for an election and they gave it to him, for free. Not only that, by securing nothing in return, they let him have home advatage and a 5 goal start. Whilst Johnson will forever be associated with Brexit, if there are any negative consequences that flow from it, all the opposition parties need to recognise the roll they have played in facilitating it.
Should they have insisted on a second referendum, whilst being clear that the 'question' was going to be Johnsons deal or remain, he would have found it quite difficult to refuse, given how 'brilliant' he has continually said his deal was.

 

[Len Rum]

Leaving always meant leaving the SM and CU it is that simple.

"Leaving ( the EU) always meant leaving the CU" is incorrect from a legal point of view (example Turkey) and from what was said ( or not said) in the 2016 referendum campaign. Govt. official stance was that remaining in the CU was an option. CU was hardly ever mentioned in the debate.
It doesn't matter now because remaining in the CU isn't going to happen.
Simply correcting your post about what leaving "ALWAYS" meant.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Hardly objective if Cameron gets to not take any blame?

He didn't mention Cameron.

If I say 2 + 2 = 4 then objectively that is correct, even though I didn't also say 3 + 3 = 6