Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

True, I’ve been at work all day so haven’t read the whole thread. Assumed when he talked about “all” Remainers he was implying a more general shift in opinion, rather than just a couple of posters on here. As mentioned, that doesn’t really reflect my experience but obviously that’s just a microcosm, and we all probably live in our own echo chambers to some extent. Still don’t really get the “fuck all Leavers” comment though.

The 'fuck all leavers' comment was, ironically, the tonality of the thread of what we were debating at the time. Teh defence was that remainers on here were actually not of a "fuck all leavers" mindset and were advocating a compromise. Clearly the latter isn't the case and no compromise is being sought or advocated on here, despite those of us doing so seeking one.

It was genuinely a claim that remainers on here were aiming towards said compromise, rather than a complete revocation and rejection of leave/compromisers wishes, which was what many of us feel is the case. Clearly it is.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It’s like saying, Right you can shit your pants or piss yourself, choose?

I’d rather not do either but I’ll piss myself if I’ve no other choice.

I'd pick shitting my pants.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'd pick shitting my pants.

You just like the smell you weirdo.

 

[Metal Biker]

As a compromise.

We aren’t leavers, we don’t feel it’s the best position but the referendum matters and if we can find a soft way out then I’ll be content.

It doesn’t mean I feel it’s best.

It’s like saying, Right you can shit your pants or piss yourself, choose?

I’d rather not do either but I’ll piss myself if I’ve no other choice.

I'm not a "leaver" either, anymore. I'm a compromiser, one who knows what ignoring 17.4m people will do to the integrity of this country, politically. I also do not advocate leaving at all costs in ways that would damage the economy/UK union for the exact same reason.

A compromise must be sought, but this thread is filled with "stop brexit"eers.

 

[Ric]

The 'fuck all leavers' comment was, ironically, the tonality of the thread of what we were debating at the time. Teh defence was that remainers on here were actually not of a "fuck all leavers" mindset and were advocating a compromise. Clearly the latter isn't the case and no compromise is being sought or advocated on here, despite those of us doing so seeking one.

It was genuinely a claim that remainers on here were aiming towards said compromise, rather than a complete revocation and rejection of leave/compromisers wishes, which was what many of us feel is the case. Clearly it is.

Funny how those who have railed against generalisations in the past are more than happy to throw them out themselves. Few, if any, Remainers I know think that a Lib Dem style revocation is the way forward, for what it’s worth. Anyway, I shall leave you to it.

 

[Metal Biker]

As a compromise.

We aren’t leavers, we don’t feel it’s the best position but the referendum matters and if we can find a soft way out then I’ll be content.

It doesn’t mean I feel it’s best.

It’s like saying, Right you can shit your pants or piss yourself, choose?

I’d rather not do either but I’ll piss myself if I’ve no other choice.

I choose piss my pants, Think outside the box!

The insinuation wasn't that you were a "leaver" (except to be tongue-in-cheek), it was more that you were now aligned to leavers who insist we leave the EU as part of the resolution to the brexit situation as being the most appealing to the majority who'd support it.

You'd "support" the leavers in this sense. That's all.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Genuinely hope the **** pulls it off.

 

[Metal Biker]

Funny how those who have railed against generalisations in the past are more than happy to throw them out themselves. Few, if any, Remainers I know think that a Lib Dem style revocation is the way forward, for what it’s worth. Anyway, I shall leave you to it.

So it's not good when we do it (after months of having generalisations thrown at us?) We all have a breaking point. *disclaimer: tongue-in-cheek*

Some of us challenged that claim, given most spend their time shouting "stop brexit" on here as the only compromise. Some said that remainers on her ARE looking for a compromise, only tochallenge that claim as well, which you agree isn't the case.

Brexit would go along so much smoother if those who still advocate remaining would explain how they plan to appease the 17.4m leave voters and also tie in their intentions on brexit, because at the minute it seems to be "we respect you and the vote you took, but fuck the vote itself and what you want from it."

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm not a "leaver" either, anymore. I'm a compromiser, one who knows what ignoring 17.4m people will do to the integrity of this country, politically. I also do not advocate leaving at all costs in ways that would damage the economy/UK union for the exact same reason.

A compromise must be sought, but this thread is filled with "stop brexit"eers.

17.4m is a big figure but so is the 16m+ of people who voted remain, a figure that has likely grown according to the polls.

Not that I’m arguing that we should remain because of that. We were close to 50/50 then and we are now for sure.

The trouble with this whole thing and compromising is that the Tories have absolutely fucked it on all levels. Cameron should have at least set out a leave plan to enact in the event of him losing. May’s negotiations were horrific, not just her fault but Robbins, Davis and Raab etc. too. Johnson has backed himself into a corner with nowhere to go and started to behave like a tinpot fascist by suspending the beating heart of our democracy, to appease hardliners. And now we are left with the choice between a hard Brexit or no Brexit.

Labour will give another referendum against a soft Brexit and remain will undoubtedly win. LibDems will revoke, the rest are either no deal or referendum too.

In fact, the only real chance of a deal is Johnson and he’s all over the place and seemingly not interested in getting a deal.

 

[Ban-jani]

I choose piss my pants, Think outside the box!

The insinuation wasn't that you were a "leaver" (except to be tongue-in-cheek), it was more that you were now aligned to leavers who insist we leave the EU as part of the resolution to the brexit situation as being the most appealing to the majority who'd support it.

You'd "support" the leavers in this sense. That's all.

I’d support leavers who wanted a deal that didn’t trash the economy, gave us access to the European Markets and didn’t compromise the GFA, yes.

I wanted Rory Stewart to win the Tory leadership challenge for that very reason and I still hope Johnson somehow achieves a miracle and gets a new deal.

 

[Metal Biker]

17.4m is a big figure but so is the 16m+ of people who voted remain, a figure that has likely grown according to the polls.

Not that I’m arguing that we should remain because of that. We were close to 50/50 then and we are now for sure.

The trouble with this whole thing and compromising is that the Tories have absolutely fucked it on all levels. Cameron should have at least set out a leave plan to enact in the event of him losing. May’s negotiations were horrific, not just her fault but Robbins, Davis and Raab etc. too. Johnson has backed himself into a corner with nowhere to go and started to behave like a tinpot fascist by suspending the beating heart of our democracy, to appease hardliners. And now we are left with the choice between a hard Brexit or no Brexit.

Labour will give another referendum against a soft Brexit and remain will undoubtedly win. LibDems will revoke, the rest are either no deal or referendum too.

In fact, the only real chance of a deal is Johnson and he’s all over the place and seemingly not interested in getting a deal.

Yes, they both are, which is why remaining is not an option, and neither is not leaving. Neither no deal nor remain numbers are anything like a clear 70+% majority, so going with one over the other will only see the matter continue.

How many remainers would accept Labour's Common Market 2.0 as a way of getting out of the mess?
How many would accept a revised WA?

Labour talk a good proposal, but the public simply doesn't trust them. Thankfully the Lib Dems are doing a tremendous job of taking the ayre away from them, so now might just be right for them to push through their plan of seeking a new deal with the EU that they and ultimately the majority would accept. But once they get in power, would they carry it through, or just revoke? Nobody trusts the likes of Thornberry, Cooper or Abbott to back doing what they promised, except now they'd be in power.

The question is trust, and the electorates faith in either of the parties intentions is at the lowest it's ever been. Which is why we need "compromisers" to put pressure on their MP's to back a compromise solution, and not fall back towards a "stop brexit" policy.

 

[Ric]

Brexit would go along so much smoother if those who still advocate remaining would explain how they plan to appease the 17.4m leave voters

It would probably have gone much smoother too if those who advocate leaving had explained how they planned to appease the 16.1m Remain voters. There should have been compromise from the outset, with a cross-party approach, but the Tories opted against that, hence the position we find ourselves in now.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’d support leavers who wanted a deal that didn’t trash the economy, gave us access to the European Markets and didn’t compromise the GFA, yes.

I wanted Rory Stewart to win the Tory leadership challenge for that very reason and I still hope Johnson somehow achieves a miracle and gets a new deal.

Same here. Told you, I just want a compromise that satisfies the core aspects of both sides of the argument; ending the political union with the EU, allowing us the freedom to conduct trade deals with nations outside the EU, independently from the EU, safeguarding the economy and the UK union. The EU have told us this was possible and drew up options. May fucked us all over due to her objection to FoM, something she's publicly opposed for years.

 

[Metal Biker]

It would probably have gone much smoother too if those who advocate leaving had explained how they planned to appease the 16.1m Remain voters. There should have been compromise from the outset, with a cross-party approach, but the Tories opted against that, hence the position we find ourselves in now.

That was an opportunity for you to explain how YOU would appease the 17.4m. I've already explained how I would appease the remainers, by addressing their main concerns and leaving whilst keeping those core issues intact; safeguard the UK economy, EU citizens and the integrity of the UK union.

Over to you.

 

[1.618034]

Genuinely hope the **** pulls it off.

Pulls what off?

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes, they both are, which is why remaining is not an option, and neither is not leaving. Neither no deal nor remain numbers are anything like a clear 70+% majority, so going with one over the other will only see the matter continue.

How many remainers would accept Labour's Common Market 2.0 as a way of getting out of the mess?
How many would accept a revised WA?

Labour talk a good proposal, but the public simply doesn't trust them. Thankfully the Lib Dems are doing a tremendous job of taking the ayre away from them, so now might just be right for them to push through their plan of seeking a new deal with the EU that they and ultimately the majority would accept. But once they get in power, would they carry it through, or just revoke? Nobody trusts the likes of Thornberry, Cooper or Abbott to back doing what they promised, except now they'd be in power.

The question is trust, and the electorates faith in either of the parties intentions is at the lowest it's ever been. Which is why we need "compromisers" to put pressure on their MP's to back a compromise solution, and not fall back towards a "stop brexit" policy.

I don’t speak for remain but I think just on this forum more would than wouldn’t.

Sorry to be pedantic but it was former Tory MP Nick Boles who put forward Common Market 2.0 and subsequently left the party as his then colleagues refused to compromise.

Labour’s is a revised WA, with an alternative Customs Union Agreement to the backstop. One without as many red lines and Corbyn is hoping one in which will give us more say when it comes to the EU setting tariffs etc.

The problem is we still won’t be able to do our own trade deals without them so I can’t see it getting support.

You know what I think is the biggest compromise in all of this? And it isn’t us in Britain that will make it but those in Northern Ireland. The customs border needs to be in the Irish Sea and Northern Ireland, whilst being a member of the UK, needs to have a shared agreement and remain in the Customs Union, that’s the price of Brexit and it could lead to the breakup of our country but it’s the only one in my opinion.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I'm not a "leaver" either, anymore. I'm a compromiser, one who knows what ignoring 17.4m people will do to the integrity of this country, politically. I also do not advocate leaving at all costs in ways that would damage the economy/UK union for the exact same reason.

A compromise must be sought, but this thread is filled with "stop brexit"eers.

I’m close to giving this thread a wide berth for a while. Maybe after the 31st of October, but it’s like a car crash. You can’t help looking on.

I do find your post above genuine however, and don’t take this the wrong way, but can you not see that how the current theme in here of sneering at Remainers and calling them reformed and born again leavers etc., seems to me from the outside to be every bit as antagonizing and unappealing as what you and many other Leavers have protested about for three years. That being called racist or stupid etc was not the way to influence people or successfully change their opinion.

Again, not talking about you as I find your last post refreshing, but I struggle in here with the levels of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness across the board. Of course there are times when very sensible debate takes place, but neither side is very good at compromise and the way it’s greeted in here, you can see why the polarization remains.

I think politics is all about compromise. In here it seems to be all about being right.
Facilitating all sides seems to be a sign of weakness.

Not have a go at you MB, just using your post to reply to as I find myself figuratively biting my tongue in here.

After a deal you still have a long way to go and you will have to mend the riffs in Westminster and together in society whatever the outcome.

If the levels of condescension aren’t toned down and triumphalism from the so called winners I honestly can’t see there being a winner.

Good night.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It will be interesting seeing the detail of any proposals and the response from the likes of the ERG. Can't help but think the secrecy is because they won't go for it as it stands - wouldn't mind betting there are feelers being put out tonight to certain "moderate" ERG members to sound them out and see how they think their colleagues will react. Still miles away from getting a WA that Parliament will agree to if you ask me.

In any event this is only a way into the transition period if it gets passed - I bet the transition period suddenly becomes extendable AND lucrative trade deals won't be that easy to procure. The EU are probably confident we will be back before too long at which point in terms of what we would need to do will illustrate what we are giving up.

 

[Metal Biker]

I don’t speak for remain but I think just on this forum more would than wouldn’t.

Sorry to be pedantic but it was former Tory MP Nick Boles who put forward Common Market 2.0 and subsequently left the party as his then colleagues refused to compromise.

Labour’s is a revised WA, with an alternative Customs Union Agreement to the backstop. One without as many red lines and Corbyn is hoping one in which will give us more say when it comes to the EU setting tariffs etc.

The problem is we still won’t be able to do our own trade deals without them so I can’t see it getting support.

You know what I think is the biggest compromise in all of this? And it isn’t us in Britain that will make it but those in Northern Ireland. The customs border needs to be in the Irish Sea and Northern Ireland, whilst being a member of the UK, needs to have a shared agreement and remain in the Customs Union, that’s the price of Brexit and it could lead to the breakup of our country but it’s the only one in my opinion.

WHich was a huge proponent of me not supporting such an arrangement, but the people of Northern Ireland, the concensus is that they would be fine with such a reality. If it gets the majority of the people of NI's backing, that's all that really matters as per the GFA situation.

 

[Ric]

That was an opportunity for you to explain how YOU would appease the 17.4m. I've already explained how I would appease the remainers, by addressing their main concerns and leaving whilst keeping those core issues intact; safeguard the UK economy, EU citizens and the integrity of the UK union.

Over to you.

What you or I think is irrelevant in the scheme of things. I was talking about the politicians whose responsibility this is, and presumed you were too.