Another new Brexit thread

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Not really. If the "deal" had been to leave but remain in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border who would have objected?
You've posted this 'promise' three times now and those are the only occasions I've ever heard of it! I suppose it's from stuff like this -

A summary


  • We end the supremacy of EU law and the European Court. We will be able to kick out those who make our laws.

  • Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.

  • Third, we will have a new UK-EU trading relationship. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. The heart of what we all want is the continuation of tariff-free trade with minimal bureaucracy. Countries as far away as Australia have Mutual Recognition agreements with the EU that deal with complex customs (and other ‘non-tariff barrier’) issues. We will do the same.

    What about the so-called ‘Single Market’? The ‘Single Market’ is almost universally misunderstood and is nowhere defined in the EU Treaties. It was created in the 1980s by Jacques Delors in order to impose qualified majority voting in a vast range of areas beyond international trade such as the free movement of people, how we build schools or aircraft carriers, and thousands of things like the energy requirements of hoovers and the maximum size of containers in which two people sell olive oil to each other in the Shetland Islands (five litres). The Foreign Office and CBI like to claim that the Single Market was about ‘free trade’ but this is historical nonsense. Delors’ goal was explicitly political - as he said, 'we’re not here just to make a Single Market, that doesn’t interest me, but to make a political union.'

    The Single Market causes big problems. For example, the Clinical Trials Directive has hampered the testing of vital cancer drugs for years causing unnecessary deaths. Single Market rules add complexity, time, and billions to government procurement programmes. Economists have tried and failed for twenty years to identify clear general gains from the Single Market. Even the Commission’s own, obviously optimistic, figures show that the supposed gains for the UK are smaller than reasonable estimates of the regulatory costs. Most businesses have said for over a decade that the Single Market does more harm than good but this debate has been distorted by a small number of large multinationals that lobby Brussels to use regulations to crush entrepreneurial competition. Big businesses are often the enemy of the public interest.

    These problems will grow. The next EU Treaty is intended to harmonise another vast range of things including areas such as company law and ‘property rights’. Harmonising regulations is often good for countries like Greece but is often disastrous for Britain which wins more of the world’s investment in Europe than any other European country precisely because much of our legal system is not yet harmonised with Europe.

    The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave. British businesses that want to sell to the EU will obey EU rules just as American, Swiss, or Chinese businesses do. Only about one in twenty British businesses export to the EU but every business is subject to every EU law. There is no need for Britain to impose all EU rules on all UK businesses as we do now, any more than Australia or Canada or India imposes all EU rules on their businesses. British businesses that wish to follow Single Market rules should be able to without creating obligations on everybody else to follow them. The vast majority of British businesses that do not sell to the EU will benefit from the much greater flexibility we will have.

    The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly. The idea that ‘access to the Single Market’ is a binary condition and one must accept all Single Market rules is already nonsense - the Schengen system is ‘Single Market’ and we are not part of that. After we vote to leave, we will expand the number of damaging Single Market rules that we no longer impose and we will behave like the vast majority of countries around the world, trading with the EU but, crucially, without accepting the supremacy of EU law.

    Regulatory diversity is good in many ways. One of the great advantages of post-Renaissance Europe over China was regulatory diversity. This meant Europe experimented and reinforced success (which often meant copying Britain) while China stagnated. Hamilton’s competitive federalism between the different states in America brought similar gains. Now the EU’s 1950s bureaucratic centralism, reinforced by the Charter of Fundamental Rights that gives the European Court greater power over EU members than the Supreme Court has over US states, increasingly mimics 16th century China in preventing experiments and crushing diversity.



  • We spend our money on our priorities. Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and schools.

  • We take back control of migration policy, including the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, so we have a fairer and more humane policy, and we decide who comes into our country, on what terms, and who is removed.

  • We will regain our seat on international bodies where Brussels represents us, and use our greater international influence to push for greater international cooperation.

  • We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way.

  • We will negotiate a new UK-EU Treaty and end the legal supremacy of EU law and the European Court before the 2020 election.

  • We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests.

  • Given that all the big issues have already been solved over the years between the EU and countries around the world, and there is already a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to the Russian border, the new UK-EU Treaty should be ready within two years. In many areas we will continue existing arrangements at least for a while. Obviously the relationship will change and improve over time but a main goal for the first phase is to avoid unnecessary disruption. All the important elements of a new Treaty should be in place well before the next election.
 
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So many Leavers on here say their minds were made up before the vote so what was said and promised made no difference - except it seems for the bit about abiding by the result. I'd be happier accepting that promise as immutable if you'd accept that promising we'd still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border was fraudulent.

As Tony Benn would have pointed out...
Ha - I have missed the Alaska - Sweden posts
 
You've posted this 'promise' three times now and those are the only occasions I've ever heard of it! I suppose it's from stuff like this -

A summary


  • We end the supremacy of EU law and the European Court. We will be able to kick out those who make our laws.

  • Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.

  • Third, we will have a new UK-EU trading relationship. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. The heart of what we all want is the continuation of tariff-free trade with minimal bureaucracy. Countries as far away as Australia have Mutual Recognition agreements with the EU that deal with complex customs (and other ‘non-tariff barrier’) issues. We will do the same.

    What about the so-called ‘Single Market’? The ‘Single Market’ is almost universally misunderstood and is nowhere defined in the EU Treaties. It was created in the 1980s by Jacques Delors in order to impose qualified majority voting in a vast range of areas beyond international trade such as the free movement of people, how we build schools or aircraft carriers, and thousands of things like the energy requirements of hoovers and the maximum size of containers in which two people sell olive oil to each other in the Shetland Islands (five litres). The Foreign Office and CBI like to claim that the Single Market was about ‘free trade’ but this is historical nonsense. Delors’ goal was explicitly political - as he said, 'we’re not here just to make a Single Market, that doesn’t interest me, but to make a political union.'

    The Single Market causes big problems. For example, the Clinical Trials Directive has hampered the testing of vital cancer drugs for years causing unnecessary deaths. Single Market rules add complexity, time, and billions to government procurement programmes. Economists have tried and failed for twenty years to identify clear general gains from the Single Market. Even the Commission’s own, obviously optimistic, figures show that the supposed gains for the UK are smaller than reasonable estimates of the regulatory costs. Most businesses have said for over a decade that the Single Market does more harm than good but this debate has been distorted by a small number of large multinationals that lobby Brussels to use regulations to crush entrepreneurial competition. Big businesses are often the enemy of the public interest.

    These problems will grow. The next EU Treaty is intended to harmonise another vast range of things including areas such as company law and ‘property rights’. Harmonising regulations is often good for countries like Greece but is often disastrous for Britain which wins more of the world’s investment in Europe than any other European country precisely because much of our legal system is not yet harmonised with Europe.

    The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave. British businesses that want to sell to the EU will obey EU rules just as American, Swiss, or Chinese businesses do. Only about one in twenty British businesses export to the EU but every business is subject to every EU law. There is no need for Britain to impose all EU rules on all UK businesses as we do now, any more than Australia or Canada or India imposes all EU rules on their businesses. British businesses that wish to follow Single Market rules should be able to without creating obligations on everybody else to follow them. The vast majority of British businesses that do not sell to the EU will benefit from the much greater flexibility we will have.

    The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly. The idea that ‘access to the Single Market’ is a binary condition and one must accept all Single Market rules is already nonsense - the Schengen system is ‘Single Market’ and we are not part of that. After we vote to leave, we will expand the number of damaging Single Market rules that we no longer impose and we will behave like the vast majority of countries around the world, trading with the EU but, crucially, without accepting the supremacy of EU law.

    Regulatory diversity is good in many ways. One of the great advantages of post-Renaissance Europe over China was regulatory diversity. This meant Europe experimented and reinforced success (which often meant copying Britain) while China stagnated. Hamilton’s competitive federalism between the different states in America brought similar gains. Now the EU’s 1950s bureaucratic centralism, reinforced by the Charter of Fundamental Rights that gives the European Court greater power over EU members than the Supreme Court has over US states, increasingly mimics 16th century China in preventing experiments and crushing diversity.


  • We spend our money on our priorities. Instead of sending £350 million per week to Brussels, we will spend it on our priorities like the NHS and schools.

  • We take back control of migration policy, including the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, so we have a fairer and more humane policy, and we decide who comes into our country, on what terms, and who is removed.

  • We will regain our seat on international bodies where Brussels represents us, and use our greater international influence to push for greater international cooperation.

  • We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way.

  • We will negotiate a new UK-EU Treaty and end the legal supremacy of EU law and the European Court before the 2020 election.

  • We do not necessarily have to use Article 50 - we may agree with the EU another path that is in both our interests.
Sorry, George. Didn't read that (even after the edit). Apart from the opening paragraph. You've obviously come late to this.

See second bullet point:

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
 
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I think that if the U.K. goes into decline relative to our European neighbours then very harsh questions needed to be asked of the people elected to govern this country. If comparable or lesser EU economies are doing better or even overtaking us then it’s fair to assume we are not making the best of our membership or it’s opportunities.

It’s a bit like joining a gym and wondering why everyone else is getting fitter and stronger than you. The weak response is blame the gym and cancel your membership. The honest response would be to first question what you are doing wrong and put that right.

Do you think this country has the balls to question itself or will we take the weak and easy route and blame everyone else? I think the last three years has shown that we will choose whining victimhood. It’s the Brexit way.
I was thinking about the most polite way to reply to that - because it just seems so much bollocks

How to politely say that? - Answers on a postcard
 
Still speculation and still an analysis peculiar to you (with the vast majority of analysts against you and accepting that being in the EU has greatly benefited Britain and that your rumours of the death of the EU are greatly exaggerated).
Still speculation from us all

And still, IMO, my speculation is far more valid than yours - so your point is?
 
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Sorry, George. Didn't read that. Apart from the opening paragraph. You've obviously come late to this. See second bullet point:
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
Possibly, and I can see cause for complaint but that link is what I posted verbatim. I think the vague promise was clearly contingent on resolving the issues set out in the expanded explanation of the bullet point.
 
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Actually it’s around 120,000 largely senile and incontinent geriatrics that are about to deliver Johnson as PM.
Seems an insult to democracy

But, on this occasion, thank fuck for that.

Still - he is a **** so we Brexiteers will be betrayed
 
This is probably not a realistic option. You make a good point about a means to leave the EU having been negotiated but it seemed sadly to be so poor as to be unacceptable to both leave and remain people. This is interpreted by Remainers as signifying that we have no sensible option other than to remain, and by brexiteers as we have no other option than no deal. Both positions have their merits, but of course the 'deal' was not the issue of the referendum, and although it of course is worthy of debate, to reframe the debate as being dependent upon the nature of the deal is to deny the referendum result. One of the things I most admire in the remain lobby is their success post-referendum in re- framing a binary yes/no in/out question in conditional terms based upon a 'deal'.
So fucking well said

Calmy cutting through sooo much bollocks
 
I can't really help you there as I wasn't aware that any deal was on offer in 2016. Indeed the only one I'm aware of is the deal brokered by Mrs May and rejected by parliament. If there was another deal, then please excuse my ignorance.
Fuck me - but you are good at cutting through the distraction tactics
 
I can't help but notice you credit brexiteers with having 'had their shot' in March and missed, but seem to suggest Remainers didn't miss theirs in 2016? This shows a lack of critical thinking and analysis and rather just shows you are as entrenched in your view as the most extreme brexiteers. That's fine by the way, but bear in mind you are then expressing a dearly held opinion rather than a fact.
Fuck - do you realise that you are speaking to the Remainer oracle?

An entire belief system could collapse if some of them get their heads around the sheer commonsense of what you so politely post
 
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Indeed not, but if the result had gone the other way I doubt the route taken would have troubled you as much. I think most of us realise the whole thing was an attempt to put to bed a split in the Tory party that went wrong.
You appear to misapprehend my principal motivation throughout this whole sorry process, namely the preservation of national unity; historically, our greatest strength as a nation.

Cameron has created a schism that cannot repair itself for at least a generation. Fucking idiot.
 
Do you have to reply at once to every point made? Especially when you think so much of it is bollox.
Hurts my thumb scrolling down when you come on here replying to everything.
It’s why all the previous Brexit threads got pulled. People used to respond to all that shite.
 
And if we Remain the costs will only keep going up as the EU keeps returning to its favourite milch cow to fund its lagesse

This is a strange argument. We are part of the EU at the moment, you make it sound it as though we are a separate entity. An equivalent would be Mancunians paying taxes to subsidise a bus service on the Outer Hebrides or Rochdale. We pay it because we don't to deprive others who will suffer from the lack of a bus service. In a similar vein Europeans (us included)have paid for the new motorway across the Algarve Portugal. That investment will mean Portugal can benefit from growth and in turn give back to the EU so another area can benefit.

To describe the UK as a cash cow is plainly ridiculous, we pay our share, sometimes areas like the Outer Hebrides and Rochdale benefit too. The debate is framed in an us and them manner which is misleading because it makes us as a nation look like hypocrites because we do the same with our nations confines.

The UK may be a net contributer as it stands but as other area's economies benefit from investment that balance will be addressed. So I am afraid that argument is disingenuous and does the leave side no credit.
 
I like this post a lot. I favour the U.K. becoming more integrated with the EU and an EU run on more federal lines but I do wonder if this post also encapsulates a degree of British exceptionalism and hubris that kind of got us into this mess in the first place. It’s the demand that 27 other countries agree to the way we think the EU should be set up and run or we leave. The thing about the the EU project is that every country is a stakeholder and every country has a view and a voice so by its very nature the EU will be a horse designed by a committee and that desirable change will always be incremental and that major change will only come when enough of the 28 countries are ready to take that next leap forward.

If we concede that the core of the EU project is not to repeat the horrors of the last century then surely taking a purist view of what the EU should be ‘or else’ is ultimately self defeating. We can’t help build something if we continually threaten to leave everytime it doesn’t go the way we want. We can’t tell 27 other countries that we will remain but only if they agree to do it the way we see fit because ultimately they will tell us, as they did with Cameron, to ‘get over ourselves’ and we end up with the Brexit shitshow which isn’t doing anyone any favours right now.

And here is the other thing. You didn’t vote because it didn’t give you the option you wanted? Really? Isn’t that the kind of arrogance that got us into this mess? A bloc of 28 countries trying to put together a project to remove barriers to trade and between people isn’t being run the way you want so screw it? Doesn’t even the attempt merit a begrudging vote for it?

That is a fair argument, and I do see your point about exceptionalism. It would be my preference of course and I would only wish it to happen if it had a democratic mandate. I am not a believer in forcing democracy on to others we should cajole and persuade for the greater good.

I didn't vote because the options were remain which I believe is status quo, nothing changes which in my mind is untenable because as it stands the EU does not work for everyone, I didn't vote leave because I believe that to be a mistake when we should be part of a greater whole. I don't want to screw it nor do I want it to continue as it stands because the leave vote confirmed that many in this country think that as we stand is wrong. I could have begrudgingly voted remain, I accept that but the status quo is not what I want, I could have voted leave under different circumstances such as if it was a Labour party in power and Lexit was on offer. As it stood the extreme Brexit on offer from the likes of Farage and Johnson is not something I could vote for either. I am not daft Bob, I gave it lots of thought and I was torn between the two. I am not a fan of direct democracy either as I do believe it undermines the sovereignty of Parliament. If I had of voted it would have been on the basis of least worst option, which in my mind is negative democracy, you should either be able to affirm or oppose and I don't believe I was given that option in a fair manner. Yes my position is nuanced and it may be arrogant but I saw myself as being between a rock and a hard place with no other option available.
 
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