Another new Brexit thread

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Rascal said:
I would say I am ideologically committed to an expanded democratic EU because as an International Socialist I see that as a chance to bring about a Democratic Socialist Europe. I am not ideologically committed to the EU as it stands which is why I did not vote remain as I see the EU as a neo-liberal club that is run for capitalist advantage. I did not vote leave because the ideologues behind leave believe that the UK should be ultra neo-liberal and are totally committed to free markets. I am as ideologically opposed to free markets as I am to authoritarian state organised capitalism.

My position has not changed since before the referendum, if it was possible to go back to the first thread that was ever on here about it you would find I was opposed to the referendum on the grounds that I thought direct democracy would undermine Parliament and that the referendum was too simplistic in its yes or no nature. The choice we were given was between the neo-liberal status quo or the ultra neo-liberal leave with added xenophobia. It was not really a choice yet it has still managed to split the country and pit people against people in what I consider to be one of the most ill-judged political moves of the last 100 years. The referendum was a party political choice made by a man desperate to cling to power and it destroyed him, I truly believe he was that arrogant he thought it would save him and he would be lauded as a political visionary. To gamble so recklessly with peoples life makes him beyond contempt in my eyes and he showed himself to be a small minded man of narrow insight. In his arrogance he never foresaw the damage he could be doing but he framed the referendum in such a simplistic binary fashion it could only ever end up this way. He never considered there could be a third alternative which I ideologically support, that of greater integration and federalisation. He deliberately excluded people like myself from the referendum which meant he ultimately paid the price of his own humiliation. However he was not the only one to fuck things up, both campaigns were derisory, infected with extremists and monied interests. Leave could have fought the campaign on a clear platform of no deal, just 100% out, which I would have considered supporting, rather than the hotch potch of promises such as that one made on the side of the bus which has left leave In a mess of not knowing how to leave and arguing about deals etc when if it had won a mandate on a clear message it could have been done and dusted by now. Remain was equally inept, it casually campaigned for the status quo which lacked vision and was easily attacked as subservience to the EU. Remain could have campaigned on the future of becoming part of a fully federal EU with an elected President and a system of regional parliaments, with the added economic benefits of sharing things like defence, common democratic values and free movement, but it chose not to and offered the people no vision at all, just more of the same and deservedly lost.

I have had a long read of this thread, hundreds of pages of it and if I am brutally honest I have not seen one decent argument for leaving or remaining, all I have seen is a myriad of sound bites, accusations and lies which as it turns out is a microcosm of the debate nation wide. I understand the ideologies behind posters reasoning, and I commend those who believe so passionately in their cause, there is though one thing missing on both sides and that is where is the vision?
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Thanks for writing that. Very succinct analysis of what the referendum actually offered the voters and more importantly what it did not.. The subsequent fall out is as you say very sad for all of us.
 
bellbuzzer said:
brexit's vision is patently, blatantly, blindingly a return to victorian times, the far-right wet dream, obviously not stated on the side of a bus or headlines on their rag-sheets, but undeniable, despite the laughable nonsense about "trajectory" ffs, the never-ending whines about "death of democracy", the latest attack on the "hideous"..."hideous ffs" gfa/backstop took three years to be admitted to. The entire brexit salient has been based on victimhood, " we have to leave cos you called us thick stupid racists", the EU caused austerity, crime-waves, housing shortage, ad fkin nauseum.
The remain camp has been fire-fighting since day one, thanks to the state of the labour party, how can they have a "vision" that suits both sides? Corbyn is a default "leader", circumstance not talent is the reason he is there. The fact that the media is implacably opposed to any, any non-tory cause is why, despite being the worst most corrupt and riven tory government in history they are still In Power..... The country (vast majority) needs the anyone-but-tory opposition to coalesce into a bloc that firsts puts revoke as a minimum, then pursues closer ties with Brussels and fights off the nightmare of trumpism. FPTP is at the root of our stagnation as a fit and proper democracy, reinforced by a media that is over-powerful, under-regulated and corrupt, ever since murdoch met thatcher. Blackest day since the Normans laid waste.
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I thought - no!! - on this occasion don't just write it off as yet another incoherent rant - make the effort to read it.

You owe me 5mins of my life

FFS - " Blackest day since the Normans laid waste. " - I seriously hope your posts are just for shits and giggles and not genuinely meant to convey any message
 
Rascal said:
I would say I am ideologically committed to an expanded democratic EU because as an International Socialist I see that as a chance to bring about a Democratic Socialist Europe. I am not ideologically committed to the EU as it stands which is why I did not vote remain as I see the EU as a neo-liberal club that is run for capitalist advantage. I did not vote leave because the ideologues behind leave believe that the UK should be ultra neo-liberal and are totally committed to free markets. I am as ideologically opposed to free markets as I am to authoritarian state organised capitalism.

My position has not changed since before the referendum, if it was possible to go back to the first thread that was ever on here about it you would find I was opposed to the referendum on the grounds that I thought direct democracy would undermine Parliament and that the referendum was too simplistic in its yes or no nature. The choice we were given was between the neo-liberal status quo or the ultra neo-liberal leave with added xenophobia. It was not really a choice yet it has still managed to split the country and pit people against people in what I consider to be one of the most ill-judged political moves of the last 100 years. The referendum was a party political choice made by a man desperate to cling to power and it destroyed him, I truly believe he was that arrogant he thought it would save him and he would be lauded as a political visionary. To gamble so recklessly with peoples life makes him beyond contempt in my eyes and he showed himself to be a small minded man of narrow insight. In his arrogance he never foresaw the damage he could be doing but he framed the referendum in such a simplistic binary fashion it could only ever end up this way. He never considered there could be a third alternative which I ideologically support, that of greater integration and federalisation. He deliberately excluded people like myself from the referendum which meant he ultimately paid the price of his own humiliation. However he was not the only one to fuck things up, both campaigns were derisory, infected with extremists and monied interests. Leave could have fought the campaign on a clear platform of no deal, just 100% out, which I would have considered supporting, rather than the hotch potch of promises such as that one made on the side of the bus which has left leave In a mess of not knowing how to leave and arguing about deals etc when if it had won a mandate on a clear message it could have been done and dusted by now. Remain was equally inept, it casually campaigned for the status quo which lacked vision and was easily attacked as subservience to the EU. Remain could have campaigned on the future of becoming part of a fully federal EU with an elected President and a system of regional parliaments, with the added economic benefits of sharing things like defence, common democratic values and free movement, but it chose not to and offered the people no vision at all, just more of the same and deservedly lost.

I have had a long read of this thread, hundreds of pages of it and if I am brutally honest I have not seen one decent argument for leaving or remaining, all I have seen is a myriad of sound bites, accusations and lies which as it turns out is a microcosm of the debate nation wide. I understand the ideologies behind posters reasoning, and I commend those who believe so passionately in their cause, there is though one thing missing on both sides and that is where is the vision?
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Yes Cameron could have been stronger and resisted the referendum but eventually the UKIP type were getting louder and louder and growing in numbers, there would have been a time were the consensus was a public vote was needed, this was being crept in from manifestos from major parties. Believe me I wish it never happened - but I do recall the pressure Cameron was under to get a referendum to the public.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Yes Cameron could have been stronger and resisted the referendum but eventually the UKIP type were getting louder and louder and growing in numbers, there would have been a time were the consensus was a public vote was needed, this was being crept in from manifestos from major parties. Believe me I wish it never happened - but I do recall the pressure Cameron was under to get a referendum to the public.
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It wasn't even in the top 10 of peoples concerns before Cameron called it, if he was a real PM he would have refused. He was spineless and more concerned about keeping himself in power than he was about the effects it would have on the nation. We are a parliamentary democracy with little experience and virtually no constitutional provision for referendum. He bottled it because he was weak and if he had said when there is a parliamentary majority for leave we will do so, he would have cut off UKIP below the knees or there would have been a concerted effort under our parliamentary system to get MPs who wanted to leave into the House of Commons and then we would not have had the fucking nonsense we have now.
 
Rascal said:
It wasn't even in the top 10 of peoples concerns before Cameron called it, if he was a real PM he would have refused. He was spineless and more concerned about keeping himself in power than he was about the effects it would have on the nation. We are a parliamentary democracy with little experience and virtually no constitutional provision for referendum. He bottled it because he was weak and if he had said when there is a parliamentary majority for leave we will do so, he would have cut off UKIP below the knees or there would have been a concerted effort under our parliamentary system to get MPs who wanted to leave into the House of Commons and then we would not have had the fucking nonsense we have now.
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Still think there was a increasing growing uprise - especially social media circulating Farage clips in the EU , my own experience I was logging in Facebook and seeing more and more anti EU videos and calls for a referendum and I recall the media ramping up the same efforts - how long do you leave a rising voice for a referendum? If not Cameron the next PM would have IMO.
 
FlemishDuck said:
Hard to deny that no deal Brexit gives Johnson so much more economic power than he otherwise ever could have enjoyed, especially given that special circumstances also require him to take some sort of unprecedented economic decission power upon him. It's also going be about whole new regulations and a big change in subsidies.
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Indeed.
Singapore on speed.
First world economy, third world benefits.
De Fiffel, Mogg et al will be ok.
Workers fcuked.
 
Rascal said:
It wasn't even in the top 10 of peoples concerns before Cameron called it, if he was a real PM he would have refused. He was spineless and more concerned about keeping himself in power than he was about the effects it would have on the nation. We are a parliamentary democracy with little experience and virtually no constitutional provision for referendum. He bottled it because he was weak and if he had said when there is a parliamentary majority for leave we will do so, he would have cut off UKIP below the knees or there would have been a concerted effort under our parliamentary system to get MPs who wanted to leave into the House of Commons and then we would not have had the fucking nonsense we have now.
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Over 33 million people voted in the referendum. I'd say that indicates quite a degree of concern.
 
johnnytapia said:
Over 33 million people voted in the referendum. I'd say that indicates quite a degree of concern.
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Id say that indicates quite a degree of racist propaganda, immigrants are all criminals, 70 million turks,..we'll send em all back, blag blag f'kin blag....
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Yes Cameron could have been stronger and resisted the referendum but eventually the UKIP type were getting louder and louder and growing in numbers, there would have been a time were the consensus was a public vote was needed, this was being crept in from manifestos from major parties. Believe me I wish it never happened - but I do recall the pressure Cameron was under to get a referendum to the public.
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He called the referendum to neutralise the UKIP vote and thereby ensure the Tories were returned to power in 2015 again in partnership with the Liberals who he gambled would force him to drop the referendum as a condition of their entering the coalition.
He definitely did not call it because the country were crying out for it.
He gambled on the future of the country for the sake of the Tory party.
 
Len Rum said:
He called the referendum to neutralise the UKIP vote and thereby ensure the Tories were returned to power in 2015 again in partnership with the Liberals who he gambled would force him to drop the referendum as a condition of their entering the coalition.
He definitely did not call it because the country were crying out for it.
He gambled on the future of the country for the sake of the Tory party.
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I agree with this aswell. But the growing UKIP threat and the anti EU voices was rising and rising ... I can’t imagine the levels it would be if the vote was still being refused.
 
Desperate stuff #1

‘The law is clear: the EU is obliged (by its own rules) to offer a deal that Parliament can accept’ @spectator https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-the-onus-is-on-the-eu-to-do-a-brexit-deal/

Desperate stuff #2

Councils to appoint a Brexit lead and here is £20m in extra funding to help. Between all 350 of you. Don’t spend it all at once. Honestly if the Govt is taking this no deal shit seriously why should anyone else?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/03/all-english-councils-told-to-appoint-brexit-lead
 
johnnytapia said:
Over 33 million people voted in the referendum. I'd say that indicates quite a degree of concern.
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You misunderstand my point.

Before a referendum was announced it was not in the top ten of issues, once it became an issue it created interest, it effectively ate itself, that's why giving it oxygen caused Cameron's downfall. He allowed people on the margins way to much latitude due to him and his acolytes being scared of losing power.
 
BobKowalski said:
Desperate stuff #1

‘The law is clear: the EU is obliged (by its own rules) to offer a deal that Parliament can accept’ @spectator https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-the-onus-is-on-the-eu-to-do-a-brexit-deal/

Desperate stuff #2

Councils to appoint a Brexit lead and here is £20m in extra funding to help. Between all 350 of you. Don’t spend it all at once. Honestly if the Govt is taking this no deal shit seriously why should anyone else?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/03/all-english-councils-told-to-appoint-brexit-lead
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under #1 I'd say the EU has agreed a settlement with the UK in the person of its then PM. If she parliament won't ratify it then its not the EU's fault.
 
BobKowalski said:
Desperate stuff #1

‘The law is clear: the EU is obliged (by its own rules) to offer a deal that Parliament can accept’ @spectator https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-the-onus-is-on-the-eu-to-do-a-brexit-deal/

Desperate stuff #2

Councils to appoint a Brexit lead and here is £20m in extra funding to help. Between all 350 of you. Don’t spend it all at once. Honestly if the Govt is taking this no deal shit seriously why should anyone else?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/03/all-english-councils-told-to-appoint-brexit-lead
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Like that Telegraph article, that Spectator article is the last nail in the coffin of the publication's reputation. Both are now just part of a propaganda machine.

I'll say it. The writer is either a liar or Brexit has driven him mad.

Can anyone cite anything like that opening "common argument"?
 
Vic said:
Like that Telegraph article, that Spectator article is the last nail in the coffin of the publication's reputation. Both are now just part of a propaganda machine.

I'll say it. The writer is either a liar or Brexit has driven him mad.

Can anyone cite anything like that opening "common argument"?
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Yeah. The Telegraph has literally gone insane. You can smell the desperation. It’s a bit like this from the DUP. It’s a bit sad tbh. I actually thought this was a spoof.

 
Ban-jani said:
To cut a long story short I lost my passport, cancelled it and found it again, being a dick head.

My new one has just arrived, as I had to send the cancelled one off and pay for a new one, and the leave supporters on here will be glad to know they’ve removed “European Union” and there’s no mention of Europe anywhere, anymore, as far as I can see.

I feel a little sad.
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YOU don't need and new passport ! Reading all your previous posts doesn't the world end in about 90 days? There will be nowhere for you to visit....

Bring it on !! ( sorry if I come across as another, thick, ignorant leave voter who has no idea what I voted for. ) but I'm sure you will point it out AGAIN!
 
Ban-jani said:
To cut a long story short I lost my passport, cancelled it and found it again, being a dick head.

My new one has just arrived, as I had to send the cancelled one off and pay for a new one, and the leave supporters on here will be glad to know they’ve removed “European Union” and there’s no mention of Europe anywhere, anymore, as far as I can see.

I feel a little sad.
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Having also reread your post .......how does someone as clever as yourself lose their passport ! A bit low I.Q schoolboy error surely ! More the actions of a ignorant leave voter surely ;-)
 
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