Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

You are ( but I don’t know you )

Ideologically committed to the EU? Not really. I'm not averse to greater integration but my main motivation has always been the interests of the UK. Maybe a grey area in also wanting the best for other nations, but there is no dilemma there if (as most Europeans think) the EU, with all its faults, is a force for good.

 

[Vic]

Vic i am finally at the point of being past giving a fig.

Revoke, leave with no deal, second ref, leave with a deal i honestly no longer care.

Whatever happens, happens and i will get on with it.

I honestly didn't mean to stir up apathy.

Frankly my dear "I don't give a damn" was what most people thought about our relationship with the EU before Johnson made a career out of daft stories about an EU that he really supported, and others jumped on his bandwagon.

My anger at him is because his real view is the same as mine, and he's quite simply been lying for three years to get where he is

 

[Ban-jani]

There might not be time to consult.

The EU will grant an extension for a 2nd ref or referendum

 

[blueinsa]

I honestly didn't mean to stir up apathy.

Frankly my dear "I don't give a damn" was what most people thought about our relationship with the EU before Johnson made a career out of daft stories about an EU that he really supported, and others jumped on his bandwagon.

My anger at him is because his real view is the same as mine, and he's quite simply been lying for three years to get where he is

It isn't apathy mate its a realisation that our political class couldn't run a piss up in a brewery or organise an afternoon tea, never mind have us leave the EU and I'm tired of arguing the toss on here with people i dont know personally but i do know they are blues and that we share that common ground at least and given its a football forum, I'm going to try and stick to the football from now on or least stop arguing the toss.

 

[Vic]

If it lightens the mood, here's our favourite German comedian in Edinburgh: .

@henningwehn

Fringe highlight so far: black comic @nikcoppin getting ID-ed when trying to buy some wine. :) :) Unsure if that’s a case of ‘black don’t crack’ or down to the fact 12-year-olds in Scotland can look 50.

 

[smudgedj]

Please someone just make it end

Sick of the thing

Not long to go.

All saints day will be a great day - either we leave the Eu or the Conservative party is no longer a force in uk politics.

 

[hilts]

The #FBPE are as extreme as the ERG and they should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this sort of nonsense. They are the Illiberal liberals and narrowing down the reasons to vote leave to this is just plain fucking stupid.

Not everyone who voted leave is a racist although I am sure every racist voted leave.

Even the last bit is untrue

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Vic i am finally at the point of being past giving a fig.

Revoke, leave with no deal, second ref, leave with a deal i honestly no longer care.

Whatever happens, happens and i will get on with it.

It saps your strength, doesn’t it?

 

[blueinsa]

It saps your strength, doesn’t it?

Absolutely it does and for 99.99% of us life has to and does go on regardless.

Fuck brexit the season is upon us and to all those on here I have argued with and offended and pissed off apologies.

 

[mcfc1632]

How do you feel about your fellow Leavers (I think sycophants is your go-to word) who blame Labour for not supporting the WA and backstop?

I applaud anyone that prevented that WA going through with the hideous backstop

 

[mcfc1632]

I don't know anyone who was ideoligically committed to the EU. It just works.

The ideologues are those who would trash the economy to be "free".

Nope - you cannot be that blinkered

I don't believe it

 

[mcfc1632]

You are ( but I don’t know you )

Correct - very good

And back in Brussels.....

 

[west didsblue]

Absolutely it does and for 99.99% of us life has to and does go on regardless.

Fuck brexit the season is upon us and to all those on here I have argued with and offended and pissed off apologies.

The sentiment is reciprocated. Enjoy the season.

 

[Rascal]

I don't know anyone who was ideoligically committed to the EU. It just works.

The ideologues are those who would trash the economy to be "free".

I would say I am ideologically committed to an expanded democratic EU because as an International Socialist I see that as a chance to bring about a Democratic Socialist Europe. I am not ideologically committed to the EU as it stands which is why I did not vote remain as I see the EU as a neo-liberal club that is run for capitalist advantage. I did not vote leave because the ideologues behind leave believe that the UK should be ultra neo-liberal and are totally committed to free markets. I am as ideologically opposed to free markets as I am to authoritarian state organised capitalism.

My position has not changed since before the referendum, if it was possible to go back to the first thread that was ever on here about it you would find I was opposed to the referendum on the grounds that I thought direct democracy would undermine Parliament and that the referendum was too simplistic in its yes or no nature. The choice we were given was between the neo-liberal status quo or the ultra neo-liberal leave with added xenophobia. It was not really a choice yet it has still managed to split the country and pit people against people in what I consider to be one of the most ill-judged political moves of the last 100 years. The referendum was a party political choice made by a man desperate to cling to power and it destroyed him, I truly believe he was that arrogant he thought it would save him and he would be lauded as a political visionary. To gamble so recklessly with peoples life makes him beyond contempt in my eyes and he showed himself to be a small minded man of narrow insight. In his arrogance he never foresaw the damage he could be doing but he framed the referendum in such a simplistic binary fashion it could only ever end up this way. He never considered there could be a third alternative which I ideologically support, that of greater integration and federalisation. He deliberately excluded people like myself from the referendum which meant he ultimately paid the price of his own humiliation. However he was not the only one to fuck things up, both campaigns were derisory, infected with extremists and monied interests. Leave could have fought the campaign on a clear platform of no deal, just 100% out, which I would have considered supporting, rather than the hotch potch of promises such as that one made on the side of the bus which has left leave In a mess of not knowing how to leave and arguing about deals etc when if it had won a mandate on a clear message it could have been done and dusted by now. Remain was equally inept, it casually campaigned for the status quo which lacked vision and was easily attacked as subservience to the EU. Remain could have campaigned on the future of becoming part of a fully federal EU with an elected President and a system of regional parliaments, with the added economic benefits of sharing things like defence, common democratic values and free movement, but it chose not to and offered the people no vision at all, just more of the same and deservedly lost.

I have had a long read of this thread, hundreds of pages of it and if I am brutally honest I have not seen one decent argument for leaving or remaining, all I have seen is a myriad of sound bites, accusations and lies which as it turns out is a microcosm of the debate nation wide. I understand the ideologies behind posters reasoning, and I commend those who believe so passionately in their cause, there is though one thing missing on both sides and that is where is the vision?

 

[FlemishDuck]

Are you suggesting our PM is not above the corruption of insider dealing?

I don't know. I know he wouldn't be the first pm to do such a thing in the world. There are also plenty of other ways to profit from this in a way that is hard to uncover, tarrifs might benifit some company that later supports Johnson with donations.

I take in mind the Flemmish proverb "putting the cat next to the milk" which has the meaning that the easier you make it for people to steal/take, the more enticed they would be to do so. It would not be wise to create an enviroment that would be highly exploitable trough corruption.

 

[yerwot?]

brexit's vision is patently, blatantly, blindingly a return to victorian times, the far-right wet dream, obviously not stated on the side of a bus or headlines on their rag-sheets, but undeniable, despite the laughable nonsense about "trajectory" ffs, the never-ending whines about "death of democracy", the latest attack on the "hideous"..."hideous ffs" gfa/backstop took three years to be admitted to. The entire brexit salient has been based on victimhood, " we have to leave cos you called us thick stupid racists", the EU caused austerity, crime-waves, housing shortage, ad fkin nauseum.
The remain camp has been fire-fighting since day one, thanks to the state of the labour party, how can they have a "vision" that suits both sides? Corbyn is a default "leader", circumstance not talent is the reason he is there. The fact that the media is implacably opposed to any, any non-tory cause is why, despite being the worst most corrupt and riven tory government in history they are still In Power..... The country (vast majority) needs the anyone-but-tory opposition to coalesce into a bloc that firsts puts revoke as a minimum, then pursues closer ties with Brussels and fights off the nightmare of trumpism. FPTP is at the root of our stagnation as a fit and proper democracy, reinforced by a media that is over-powerful, under-regulated and corrupt, ever since murdoch met thatcher. Blackest day since the Normans laid waste.

 

[George Hannah]

Blackest day since the Normans laid waste.

That would be their 1973 re-conquest I presume. You clearly know Brexit is off then?.

 

[stonerblue]

For once you're right.
I have posted proof of my point.

Just waiting for mcfc1364 to start whining about 'the pack'..

 

[Vic]

I don't know. I know he wouldn't be the first pm to do such a thing in the world. There are also plenty of other ways to profit from this in a way that is hard to uncover, tarrifs might benifit some company that later supports Johnson with donations.

I take in mind the Flemmish proverb "putting the cat next to the milk" which has the meaning that the easier you make it for people to steal/take, the more enticed they would be to do so. It would not be wise to create an enviroment that would be highly exploitable trough corruption.

He's already got policies that benefit donors.

 

[FlemishDuck]

He's already got policies that benefit donors.

I guess its not surprising nowadays. But still the transition from an economy that is tarrif free to one that pretty much has to set "some tarrif" on every good results in the goverment being able to significantly manipulate the whole economy with "winners and loosers" as a result. "Some tarrif" can range to kill bussiness or to provide it with a giant new market to exploit post common market. For a lot of bussiness it will now "all depend on Boris his choice".

I guess in more normal circumstances tarrif policy would have been build up over decade's and the economy would have always graduatly addapted. Now the requirement is to have that policy ready upon Brexit and the economic changes therefore brought about pretty much overnight can be huge.

Eitherway, one logical route for the UK to try to profit on Brexit would be to maintain a protectionist policy on certain goods that would allow local producers to grow as to dominate the local market rather than letting it be swamped by foreign competition in a ftree trade enviroment. It would be up to goverment to provide the required policy to make certain local industry's booming to dominate that local market which alsa kinda makes it up to the goverment again who will be the winners i guess.

Hard to deny that no deal Brexit gives Johnson so much more economic power than he otherwise ever could have enjoyed, especially given that special circumstances also require him to take some sort of unprecedented economic decission power upon him. It's also going be about whole new regulations and a big change in subsidies.