Another new Brexit thread

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That's got to be the least worst option.

Probably. Brexit is a menu of increasing shite options and this is one of the least shittiest. No idea whether it will get through Parliament. Does mean it’s the first big step on the road to Irish reunification and if NI gets special treatment then you can bet Scotland and Wales will be quick to demand the same. Kind of ironic that the Conservative and Unionist Party will have helped deliver the holy grail of Irish Republicanism and probably the break up of the rest of our Union.
 
I was spectacularly wrong about Cameron. I thought he was an effective PM, despite me not being a Tory, but there's no escaping from the notion that I was mistaken, as he has to be judged on Brexit, as he spawned it, which means he was an utterly wank PM.

Well done, Dave.


Ive heard this one before , its a good one. Cameron was w**k because he promised something that prime ministers before him had and he actually delivered on that promise unlike his predecessors. And then the result didn't go as YOU wanted it to, so he was w**k. So it's all his fault lol. Thats the trouble with democracy sometimes it bites you on the arse!
 
we were told.....ITS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VOTE ......Also didn't 500 MPs vote to trigger article 50 to leave on march 29th with or without a deal ?
Deceived by the nonsense about how easy a deal would be. Thank God they've seen the light.
 
So the public were intentionally misled, told that their vote would be implemented but not told it wouldn't be if they made the wrong choice.
Is that right?
I didn't tell anyone it would be implemented. Isn't it your fault if you believe politicians rather than know the legal position? You should have listened to Cummings: "As a matter of fact a NO (leave) vote does not mean we would immediately leave and it seems likely that the parties will be forced by public opinion to offer a second vote". We all knew the Irish came to their senses and thought "what the f have we done?" and voted for the Lisbon treaty - obviously we're less inclined to admit we made a mistake.
 
Lots of chatter about a new deal in the offing. Basically it’s the original backstop deal with NI hived off from mainland Britain which is the EU’s preferred version of the backstop and the one we originally agreed to back in December 2017 which the DUP torpedoed at the last minute. Our choice was always a land border or a sea border so a sea border it is.

Hard line Unionists will go nuts but the thinking is the Govts majority no longer depends on the DUP so we are reheating May’s WA, sticking a NI only backstop on it and seeing if it can get through Parliament. Still need the extension though.
What? No free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border?
 
The Government also sent a letter to every household in the country informing us that the outcome of the referendum would be honoured.
"A once in a generation decision The referendum on Thursday, 23rd June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union. The Government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU. This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving. This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide"
https://assets.publishing.service.g.../517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf
we were told.....ITS A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VOTE ......Also didn't 500 MPs vote to trigger article 50 to leave on march 29th with or without a deal ?
Now they are the ultimate inconvenient Brexit truths
 
I must have missed that one. Can you point me at it please, I couldn’t find it when I searched.

I would think that there is a pretty obvious strategy for Johnson here

He knows that he is not going to get a change to the WA

He knows that Labour will not support any changed deal anyway - they are just looking to secure power and that is far more important to them than a good outcome that delivers on the referendum

So he should simply do what he is doing - ensure that the EU is seen as the 'bad guy' and make that clear in many peoples minds

Make sure that Labour & LibDems are seen as those responsible for forcing another extension on the UK

Undertake a major PR campaign to emphasise these positions in the minds of all those voters that are not close-minded EU sycophants

Call an election campaigning on leaving the EU, ideally with a deal, with no-deal as the 'backstop' and also with a vote being held in N.I. to enable N.I. to determine for themselves whether there should be a sea or land border - thereby closing down that issue. Obviously he would need to secure a majority and not rely on the DUP

Now it is a gamble - he may not win a majority.

I suspect though, given the large number of Remain constituencies in the south that would not vote Labour under any circumstances and the number of marginal seats - he just might.

The prospects are increased due to the LibDems and a confused Labour causing a split in the remain vote in a lot of marginal constituencies
I made several references in a number of posts with regard to what I see as the obvious way that this should/will/would have unfold(ed) - such as the one above (500 pages ago).

In summary the steps would be:

Start by recognising the red lines of Summer 2019:

1. The EU cannot reopen the WA - even if they would have they cannot now after all that has been said

2. The current UK parliament will not sign-off on any arrangement that sees the UK leaving the EU

3. Johnson is committed to bring this to a close and has/will stake his political future on achieving this

4. The EU's revised 'Ideal' option is the WA with an unfettered backstop which keeps the UK under tight control for many years to come whilst removing the fly from the ointment. Failing that their 'realistic' option is the UK remaining in the EU and their 'fallback' option is reaching some accommodation with the UK that prevents No-Deal

5. Without a 'form of' No-Deal / walk-away scenario the EU are never going to need to move from their Ideal or Realistic options to their Fallback option - therefore they have observed and worked with their Westminster supporters to remove the threat of a No-Deal and kept their powder dry.

6. Leave supporters (in government) know that if the threat of No-Deal is removed then there is absolutely no incentive for the EU to make any shift from their Ideal and Realistic positions

So.………….

At the time of posting I was saying that the only approach that can satisfy all the above is to:

8. Engineer a situation where the EU is indeed facing the threat of a No-Deal ahead of their mid-October meeting

9. Determine a manner in which the backstop can be effectively fettered - ideally through a time-limit or otherwise by the achievement of pre-determined criteria that are achievable by the UK and under its control.

10. Draft the PD to include the fettering of the backstop as described above - so the EU does not have to reopen the WA and Johnson can claim that he has effectively 'removed' the backstop.

11. Provide a 'limited backstop' which would be e.g. at the end of the time-limit set out in the PD and should the pre-determined criteria not have been achieved then N.I. will remain in the backstop until the criteria has been achieved. This was the previous EU position and likely would have been adopted until May fucked up her 2017 election and became dependent on the DUP.

12. The above - setting DUP politics to one side - provides a unique position for the people of N.I. and should be welcomed.

13. Bringing N.I. politics back into the frame - bring forward a proposal for a referendum in N.I consistent with the provisions of the GFA to determine whether N.I. remains in the UK or transitions to a part of an 'all Island Ireland'. That would indeed be interesting for the ROI as the reality of what that means kicks in. If N.I. remains in the UK following the referendum then work on achieving the pre-determined backstop criteria continues until achieved.

14. The above means all the stress and drama disappears and allows all parties to feel a sense of 'victory' - history will demonstrate the entire issue was blown up/weaponised as a negotiating tactic - I would think sensibly so if I was on the EU side.

Since making these posts the legislation has been confirmed that will prevent the No-Deal scenario - see points 4 & 5 above. This does not really change anything in this scenario - except the weightings on how it will play out. For instance:

15. There was always going to have to be a GE as the HoC will not sign up to any WA without a Leave majority and the DUP would not support the proposals above - despite them being obvious and simple. Johnson was hoping though for that to be called after he had placed the EU in a position where it had to move to the Fallback position or genuinely see a No-Deal - IMO they would indeed move and be able to claim that they are only doing what they had always offered.

16. The legislation has potentially scuppered Johnson from enacting this series of events and provides more encouragement to the EU that they can secure their Ideal or Realistic options.

For the UK a GE is needed urgently so that this can be brought to a close - either way.
 
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we can all copy and paste - mine I feel trumps yours - not least because it has been repeated over and over again. To make a referendum result legally binding it has to be legislated for in the introduction ( as was the case in the Sottish Indy Ref ) - the law does trump a government leaflet

Referendums in the United Kingdom are occasionally held at a national, regional or local level. National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated through the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.
By that logic - was 'yours' not trumped by the HoC issuing the A50 notice and putting into law that the UK will leave the EU - with or without a deal?
 
Lots of chatter about a new deal in the offing. Basically it’s the original backstop deal with NI hived off from mainland Britain which is the EU’s preferred version of the backstop and the one we originally agreed to back in December 2017 which the DUP torpedoed at the last minute. Our choice was always a land border or a sea border so a sea border it is.

Hard line Unionists will go nuts but the thinking is the Govts majority no longer depends on the DUP so we are reheating May’s WA, sticking a NI only backstop on it and seeing if it can get through Parliament. Still need the extension though.
This has always been the likely outcome and would have been agreed in 2017 if May had not fucked up her election. That she did emboldened the EU to seek for a far more desirable outcome in which it could negate the risk of an independent UK just off its shores by placing us under tightly fettered controls.

Such an outcome will allow all sides to 'claim victory' - except the DUP
 
Ive heard this one before , its a good one. Cameron was w**k because he promised something that prime ministers before him had and he actually delivered on that promise unlike his predecessors. And then the result didn't go as YOU wanted it to, so he was w**k. So it's all his fault lol. Thats the trouble with democracy sometimes it bites you on the arse!

It was not that he promised it, it was why he promised it.

At the time I posted why and people were that caught up in his promise they missed the reason why he promised it. He didn't do it to decide anything positive for the future, he did it to save his own backside. That was a dreadful reason to promise it. As PM there was no other reason to have a vote other than to cement his power and his parties hegemony.

The whole sorry episode has been an exercise about the Tory party and those of us who could not give two fucks about the Tory party have been dragged into the Tory party in-fighting. There should never have been a referendum without first having a written constitution and the country is paying a huge price for one mans vanity. It has created unprecedented chaos and undeliverable aims because one mans vanity did not take into account the possibility of losing. That arrogance of his is to blame for everything, not the result, not the positions the electorate took, not the way people voted, not the result, but most definitely the outcome.

History will I imagine judge him as the worst PM of his generation and it will look kindly on May who valiantly attempted to clean up his mess. That the chaos his arrogance and vanity has lead the country into having the second worst PM of this generation will cement Cameron's place at the top of a really sorry looking tree. It is no wonder the vain **** ran away to live in a caravan because deep down he must know that it all comes down to him.
 
Lots of chatter about a new deal in the offing. Basically it’s the original backstop deal with NI hived off from mainland Britain which is the EU’s preferred version of the backstop and the one we originally agreed to back in December 2017 which the DUP torpedoed at the last minute. Our choice was always a land border or a sea border so a sea border it is.

Hard line Unionists will go nuts but the thinking is the Govts majority no longer depends on the DUP so we are reheating May’s WA, sticking a NI only backstop on it and seeing if it can get through Parliament. Still need the extension though.
This has always been the likely outcome and would have been agreed in 2017 if May had not fucked up her election. That she did emboldened the EU to seek for a far more desirable outcome in which it could negate the risk of an independent UK just off its shores by placing us under tightly fettered controls that would last for years. For me the issue has always been about a backstop being unfettered.

Such an outcome will allow all sides to 'claim victory' - except the DUP
 
Ive heard this one before , its a good one. Cameron was w**k because he promised something that prime ministers before him had and he actually delivered on that promise unlike his predecessors. And then the result didn't go as YOU wanted it to, so he was w**k. So it's all his fault lol. Thats the trouble with democracy sometimes it bites you on the arse!
Think it's going well, do you?
 
It was not that he promised it, it was why he promised it.

At the time I posted why and people were that caught up in his promise they missed the reason why he promised it. He didn't do it to decide anything positive for the future, he did it to save his own backside. That was a dreadful reason to promise it. As PM there was no other reason to have a vote other than to cement his power and his parties hegemony.

The whole sorry episode has been an exercise about the Tory party and those of us who could not give two fucks about the Tory party have been dragged into the Tory party in-fighting. There should never have been a referendum without first having a written constitution and the country is paying a huge price for one mans vanity. It has created unprecedented chaos and undeliverable aims because one mans vanity did not take into account the possibility of losing. That arrogance of his is to blame for everything, not the result, not the positions the electorate took, not the way people voted, not the result, but most definitely the outcome.

History will I imagine judge him as the worst PM of his generation and it will look kindly on May who valiantly attempted to clean up his mess. That the chaos his arrogance and vanity has lead the country into having the second worst PM of this generation will cement Cameron's place at the top of a really sorry looking tree. It is no wonder the vain **** ran away to live in a caravan because deep down he must know that it all comes down to him.
I am no fan of Cameron, far from it as I also think he was pretty useless. But I also think you are simplifying things far too much. Past labour governments had promised a referendum and bottled it. Many labour constituencies voted strongly to leave. Calling it a Tory problem isn't that clear cut imo. It's a mess not because of the vote, but because the majority of MPs don't agree with the result of the vote. Many people I know think that is the reason why things are a mess. Sure not all, but many do.
 
So the public were intentionally misled, told that their vote would be implemented but not told it wouldn't be if they made the wrong choice.
Is that right?



It would seem so...... you should also remember that the police said that they were unwilling to investigate the shenanigans of Cambridge Analytica, the overspending of Leave Eu and the rest because the referendum was only advisory
 
I made several references in a number of posts with regard to what I see as the obvious way that this should/will/would have unfold(ed) - such as the one above (500 pages ago).

In summary the steps would be:

Start by recognising the red lines of Summer 2019:

1. The EU cannot reopen the WA - even if they would have they cannot now after all that has been said

2. The current UK parliament will not sign-off on any arrangement that sees the UK leaving the EU

3. Johnson is committed to bring this to a close and has/will stake his political future on achieving this

4. The EU's revised 'Ideal' option is the WA with an unfettered backstop which keeps the UK under tight control for many years to come whilst removing the fly from the ointment. Failing that their 'realistic' option is the UK remaining in the EU and their 'fallback' option is reaching some accommodation with the UK that prevents No-Deal

5. Without a 'form of' No-Deal / walk-away scenario the EU are never going to need to move from their Ideal or Realistic options to their Fallback option - therefore they have observed and worked with their Westminster supporters to remove the threat of a No-Deal and kept their powder dry.

6. Leave supporters (in government) know that if the threat of No-Deal is removed then there is absolutely no incentive for the EU to make any shift from their Ideal and Realistic positions

So.………….

At the time of posting I was saying that the only approach that can satisfy all the above is to:

8. Engineer a situation where the EU is indeed facing the threat of a No-Deal ahead of their mid-October meeting

9. Determine a manner in which the backstop can be effectively fettered - ideally through a time-limit or otherwise by the achievement of pre-determined criteria that are achievable by the UK and under its control.

10. Draft the PD to include the fettering of the backstop as described above - so the EU does not have to reopen the WA and Johnson can claim that he has effectively 'removed' the backstop.

11. Provide a 'limited backstop' which would be e.g. at the end of the time-limit set out in the PD and should the pre-determined criteria not have been achieved then N.I. will remain in the backstop until the criteria has been achieved. This was the previous EU position and likely would have been adopted until May fucked up her 2017 election and became dependent on the DUP.

12. The above - setting DUP politics to one side - provides a unique position for the people of N.I. and should be welcomed.

13. Bringing N.I. politics back into the frame - bring forward a proposal for a referendum in N.I consistent with the provisions of the GFA to determine whether N.I. remains in the UK or transitions to a part of an 'all Island Ireland'. That would indeed be interesting for the ROI as the reality of what that means kicks in. If N.I. remains in the UK following the referendum then work on achieving the pre-determined backstop criteria continues until achieved.

14. The above means all the stress and drama disappears and allows all parties to feel a sense of 'victory' - history will demonstrate the entire issue was blown up/weaponised as a negotiating tactic - I would think sensibly so if I was on the EU side.

Since making these posts the legislation has been confirmed that will prevent the No-Deal scenario - see points 4 & 5 above. This does not really change anything in this scenario - except the weightings on how it will play out. For instance:

15. There was always going to have to be a GE as the HoC will not sign up to any WA without a Leave majority and the DUP would not support the proposals above - despite them being obvious and simple. Johnson was hoping though for that to be called after he had placed the EU in a position where it had to move to the Fallback position or genuinely see a No-Deal - IMO they would indeed move and be able to claim that they are only doing what they had always offered.

16. The legislation has potentially scuppered Johnson from enacting this series of events and provides more encouragement to the EU that they can secure their Ideal or Realistic options.

For the UK a GE is needed urgently so that this can be brought to a close - either way.
I'll not pick at the detail of that but it was going well till the last sentence. Two out of the last three GEs have brought no overall majority (and the other one didn't give May a big enough majority over her own bastards to be confident of getting a deal). So a GE may not bring anything to a close.
 


All those people who wanted Brexit because of the EU red tape. That was another bit of media-fuelled deliberately-misleading crap. Look at what not being in the EU means for paperwork (and the extra admin costs to business).
 
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