Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
This shallow theme of making out that we are all RWNJs is getting worse

Fuck knows - there are some total arseholes that happen to be CITY fans - there are some extreme left and extreme supporting people that happen to be CITY fans.
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Ask why people are making out others are RWNJs?

For me personally it is not because they support Brexit, I have repeatedly said that under different circumstances I would probably have voted for Brexit rather than abstain. RWNJs imho are people who support that **** Yaxley-Lennon and that **** Farage because they are RWNJs. Johnson is also a RWNJ and he is a massive ****.

I am made out to be a LWNJ :)) and that is fine, if that makes me an arsehole for being "extreme" left wing then so be it, they are my political beliefs and I will debate anybody about my beliefs. One of my good friends is a RWNJ and I tell him that, we both support City, we meet have a beer and a laugh and our political persuasions are our political persuasions and we debate passionately about our beliefs, we do not fall out though as we respect each others rights to hold opinions to the contrary.

I don't think categorising any poster on here as a NJ is shallow, its an opinion, if that opinion is backed up by an argument then it is up to the said NJ to refute that opinion. I think Chippy Boy and Georgie Porgie are RWNJs but it doesn't mean I don't respect them and they I am certain they think I am a LWNJ and hope they respect my right to my opinion. As long as the debate is cordial and doesn't descend into petty name calling surely it is healthy for democracy to debate peoples political positions.

And I post knowing I can be a bit of a ****.
 
Rascal said:
Ask why people are making out others are RWNJs?

For me personally it is not because they support Brexit, I have repeatedly said that under different circumstances I would probably have voted for Brexit rather than abstain. RWNJs imho are people who support that **** Yaxley-Lennon and that **** Farage because they are RWNJs. Johnson is also a RWNJ and he is a massive ****.

I am made out to be a LWNJ :)) and that is fine, if that makes me an arsehole for being "extreme" left wing then so be it, they are my political beliefs and I will debate anybody about my beliefs. One of my good friends is a RWNJ and I tell him that, we both support City, we meet have a beer and a laugh and our political persuasions are our political persuasions and we debate passionately about our beliefs, we do not fall out though as we respect each others rights to hold opinions to the contrary.

I don't think categorising any poster on here as a NJ is shallow, its an opinion, if that opinion is backed up by an argument then it is up to the said NJ to refute that opinion. I think Chippy Boy and Georgie Porgie are RWNJs but it doesn't mean I don't respect them and they I am certain they think I am a LWNJ and hope they respect my right to my opinion. As long as the debate is cordial and doesn't descend into petty name calling surely it is healthy for democracy to debate peoples political positions.

And I post knowing I can be a bit of a ****.
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I don’t think Chippy is. He’s neoliberal but the policies in which he supports are purely economical. It’s my own view but I think for someone to be a RWNJ they need to have questionable social views and I don’t think Chippy does.

The rest of your post I completely agree with. There’s people on here who voted for Farage, yes it’s Farage as it’s a limited company without a manifesto, he is the party, and they expect us not to question their motives for doing so. Quite staggering really.
 
Ban-jani said:
I don’t think Chippy is. He’s neoliberal but the policies in which he supports are purely economical. It’s my own view but I think for someone to be a RWNJ they need to have questionable social views and I don’t think Chippy does.

The rest of your post I completely agree with. There’s people on here who voted for Farage, yes it’s Farage as it’s a limited company without a manifesto, he is the party, and they expect us not to question their motives for doing so. Quite staggering really.
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Don't get me wrong Ban, I rate Chippy as a poster, he can hold a debate, is reasonable and is well informed, its only my opinion he Is a RWNJ and I would be offended if he didn't think I was a LWNJ.
 
Rascal said:
Don't get me wrong Ban, I rate Chippy as a poster, he can hold a debate, is reasonable and is well informed, its only my opinion he Is a RWNJ and I would be offended if he didn't think I was a LWNJ.
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Yeah that’s fair enough mate. It’s purely my own definition, to be honest, of what I would class as a nut job.

For me it’s someone who only sees in right wing and doesn’t compromise across economics or social policies.
 
Vic said:
I'd be surprised if they are unanimous. I'd be surprised if they say that a PM without an overall majority has an unfettered power to get Parliament prorogued for as long as he likes (5 weeks? Why not 50 weeks?). I'd not be surprised if they rule that it is not unlawful for a PM to give untruthful advice to the queen. I hope they say that the Scottish court was right to find that he lied - just wrong to say it was unlawful.

They might challenge the Rees-Mogg line that the only Advice the monarch can take is that given by the PM and the convention that means that "the privy council" can comprise any three mates that a rogue PM chooses to send.
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The England & Wales High Court line, following Dicey, is that the decision to prorogue is not justiciable and they will not consider the issue ruled on by the Scottish Court.

"For a case to be open to judicial review, the discretionary prerogative power in question must be justiciable. The issue of justiciability simply enquires into whether an issue is appropriate for or subject to court trial. Although the distinction between justiciable and non-justiciable powers remains unclear, the concept has been ‘interpreted expansively.' Judicial review allows the actions of ministers to be challenged on the basis that he or she did not have the power to act in such a way; that the action was unreasonable, or that the power was exercised in a procedurally unfair way."

Consequently I think the Court of Session judgement will be set aside as improper and the Gov appeal will be upheld unanimously in the Supreme Court next Tuesday. A precedent will established that it is the constitutional right of any PM to lie to the Sovereign and also have the power, legally unchallengable, to suspend Parliament for as long as they feel like. If anything else happens BoJo is toast.
 
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Reports today that the customs boarder will move to the Irish Sea leaving NI to follow EU rules and regulations. This option was proposed by the EU earlier but ruled out by May. Sounds like Boris is going to do a deal with the DUP and the Tory rebels. Probably offer the DUP pots of cash to agree to it. If he can get them to agree then he can put a deal to the house before the deadline of the 19th Oct and if he can get it through he doesn’t have to ask for an extension and may be seen as delivering on his promises. Could also mean no need for an election!
 
blueinsa said:
Flounce away again and I will continue to point out your rank hypocrisy.[/QUOTE

Cant beat a good flounce, you should try it. Please, ffs please. A smiley face with "comparison" , and out comes the eponymous victims-are-us cloak, bit worn, but it's passed back and forth so often, no wonder. "Remainers call us racists" sob, " remainers call us rwnj's, just because we support a rwnj-sponsored and created coup" sobsob.
"Remainers call us stupid and claim we have no right to our opinion", so nasty, that.
Even though no-one has ever said it, we "know" that's what they really, really mean.
Remainers cannot take a joke, the constant reference to a bit of fun on the side of a bus, and the wilful misunderstanding of farage welcoming a group of holiday-makers is proof enough for us heavily centric leavers to curl a lip of scorn in their far far left direction. Guilt by association is behind all remainer propaganda because they envy our moral crusade to defend democracy, the nonsense they spout about media interference, and the utterly normal suspension of parliament, just more project fear. Remainers refuse to see any merit in the vast opportunities brexit offers , clinging to excuses like "we will be in dire straits after brexit" citing job losses and cost of living rises, medicine shortages. Desperate stuff, any blips will be temporary as they well know. but ignore. Why do they hate England so much? Why don't they emigrate, or get a job? Worker's rights? Shyster's charter more like, fuckin' commie bastards....methinks (ffs) :)
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The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
It is a zero sum game now though. We’ve lost the ability to discuss things rationally in Britain (probably more so in England). If you voted one way he’s the Messiah and if you voted the other way he’s the devil incarnate. There doesn’t seem to be any middle ground and that is to everybody’s detriment.

To be fair to Boris and co, they’ve actually almost pulled off a master stroke. They’ve got working class people supporting them as they’re going to ‘fight the establishment for them’. It helps that BoJo, Mogg, IDS and Gove are obviously very anti establishment figures but even so.....

I said it last night as well but nobody on the leave side seems remotely bothered by this Cummings chap. 1.5 billion adds targeted at 5 million ‘swing voters’ banging on about unelected and unaccountable officials and now he’s right at the centre of government. Unelected and unaccountable. It’s a funny old world....
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As someone who considers himself fairly central in political terms it's had to take a middling position on the absolute fraud that is Boris Johnson.
 
Rascal said:
Ask why people are making out others are RWNJs?

For me personally it is not because they support Brexit, I have repeatedly said that under different circumstances I would probably have voted for Brexit rather than abstain. RWNJs imho are people who support that **** Yaxley-Lennon and that **** Farage because they are RWNJs. Johnson is also a RWNJ and he is a massive ****.

I am made out to be a LWNJ :)) and that is fine, if that makes me an arsehole for being "extreme" left wing then so be it, they are my political beliefs and I will debate anybody about my beliefs. One of my good friends is a RWNJ and I tell him that, we both support City, we meet have a beer and a laugh and our political persuasions are our political persuasions and we debate passionately about our beliefs, we do not fall out though as we respect each others rights to hold opinions to the contrary.

I don't think categorising any poster on here as a NJ is shallow, its an opinion, if that opinion is backed up by an argument then it is up to the said NJ to refute that opinion. I think Chippy Boy and Georgie Porgie are RWNJs but it doesn't mean I don't respect them and they I am certain they think I am a LWNJ and hope they respect my right to my opinion. As long as the debate is cordial and doesn't descend into petty name calling surely it is healthy for democracy to debate peoples political positions.

And I post knowing I can be a bit of a ****.
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With respect you are applying reasoned debate and expressing opinions in a space where others are just practising their repeated ploy of seeking to demean all Brexit supporters though association with 'all things that should not be liked'

I will continue to consider your posts and opinions as rational and thoughtful - I will continue to consider those that act in deliberately shallow manner to seek to demean Brexit supports by stupid associations as - well shallow because, IMO, they use such techniques as they cannot debate with reason
 
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mcfc1632 said:
With respect you are applying reasoned debate and expressing opinions in a space where others are just plasticising their repeated ploy of seeking to demean all Brexit supporters though association with 'all things that should not be liked'

I will continue to consider you posts and opinions as rational and thoughtful - I will continue to consider those that act in deliberately shallow manner to seek to demean Brexit supports my stupid associations as - well shallow because, IMO, they use such techniques as they cannot debate with reason
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Thank you, I appreciate that you think of my posts in that way.
 
Rascal said:
You be ever so mighty but the Law is above you.

How long will this statement of constitutional intent last in this current crisis. We have the Judiciary and the Legislature fighting the Executive. Its an unseemly battle of will between our pillars of power.

I believe it is wrong to cast this as being between leave and remain, it is now far bigger than that as now it is a matter of how our own Parliament interacts between the pillars and a test of where power ultimately lies. How can it rest easy with anybody when the PM is judged to have lied to the Queen. I am no Monarchist and I believe it to be archaic but the power in theory rests with the crown, so how can the Crown act in the best interests of the people if the Crown loses trust in the Government. Is it possible we are close to seeing the end of the Monarchy, as the Monarchy is being politicised and it is its role to stand above politics? How can the power of the Crown be exercised by members of the executive who act against the interests of the Crown and in the name of a PM who has lied to the Monarch. If the Scottish Judges are correct and its judgement is upheld by the Supreme Court surely Johnson has to resign, Parliament has to be recalled and the Executive has to be held to account by the Legislature, that is the whole point of our democratic system as far as I am aware, although maybe others on here have a different opinion, because it is now way beyond my knowledge of how our unwritten constitution is supposed to work.

I am not even certain that our politicians know what happens next and that is dangerous, they have reverted to tribal loyalty just at the time when we need them to stand up for the rights of Parliament and the rights of the people to be represented in that Parliament. If the people have no representation how can we even consider ourselves a democratic nation. We are in a time of unprecedented national crisis and in my opinion Parliament should be sitting, we should have our representatives there doing what they were elected to do.

Obviously tomorrows media will be scapegoating somebody for this mess and it will not be Johnson, it will be I fear an attack on the Judiciary. The very judiciary that has a proud history of being the best in the world and being trusted as impartial. Dare we as a nation allow one of the pillars of our democracy to be trashed for a political end. Will it signal the end of the independence of the Judiciary and it will it become an extended arm of the Executive. That is a scary thought as that centralising of power in the Executive signals a move towards dictatorship. With the Legislature nullified and the Judiciary under central control the Executive then holds unlimited power and does so without recourse.

Our nation is changing before our very eyes and I don't think it is changing for the better, it is changing in ways nobody could have ever predicted and I don't care if you voted leave or remain, vote Labour, Tory, Lib Dem or Monster Raving Loony this has to stop, because if doesn't then the nation we have now will be unrecognisable in a few years time.

That scares me, I hope it scares you to and everyone says enough is enough, we just want open honest government that treats us all fairly and all as equals before the Law.
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Criticism of judges usually comes from people who don't understand the judgements (or a minority view in the judgement). But there have always been political judgements - usually they are judgements about politics (that Pinochet could be arrested in the UK) but for judgements made by politically-biased judges you need to read the Bromley v GLC case (that GLC couldn't subsidise fares out of the rates when the law specifically said they could).
 
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