M18CTID
Well-Known Member
Who's the biggest Unionist party over there these days? Didn't it used to be the Ulster Unionists but it's now the DUP?
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Another new Brexit thread
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Who's the biggest Unionist party over there these days? Didn't it used to be the Ulster Unionists but it's now the DUP?
Are you deliberately missing the important aspects?We know this & it has given Reece Mogg & Co an excuse to vote against a Brexit deal.
It is however A BACKSTOP. It is only there IF AN AGREEMENT CANNOT BE REACHED. So obviously, if they reach one, it can go, today.
If the backstop is unfettered then the EU can - and I suspect would - take a very long time before they 'all of a sudden' found the alternative arrangements to be acceptable.
During which time no end of new controls will have been introduced with which we will have had to comply
And strangely - all sorts of agreements will have been brought in with which our agreement will be required to make the alternative arrangements seem OK - such as controlling the UK’s policy on corporation tax
Rascal
El Presidente
The current Morning Star view on Brexit
"JOHNSON’S visit to Brussels underlines the need for a clear left alternative on the EU.
Johnson may indeed get a deal. The EU economy is teetering towards recession. Germany’s industrial output is 5 per cent down on that a year ago and it will be German exports that will take the biggest hit if Britain leaves without a deal.
But the question remains: what kind of deal?
If it is Theresa May’s deal with Irish border controls removed and agricultural standards in the North of Ireland maintained in harmony with those in the South, there still remain the commitments given in the accompanying Withdrawal Declaration for Britain to adopt the pro-business, neoliberal competition laws of the EU single market
On the other hand, if Johnson does not get a deal, it is clear that every effort will be made to engineer a caretaker government to displace Johnson and block any kind of exit settlement with the EU.
The Liberal Democrats under Jo Swinson have indicated their intention to work both with dissident Conservatives and a Labour majority leader as long as it is not Jeremy Corbyn.
They have also made clear their total contempt for any kind of democracy by announcing that they would, in government, scrap the referendum result without holding a further referendum.
Even forgetting their previous abandonment of election promises by joining David Cameron’s austerity government in 2010 — with Swinson becoming a junior employment minister pushing through anti-trade union legislation — this should make them out of bounds for any member of the Labour Party.
Disagreeing with the referendum result, or even wanting a second, is one thing. Just scrapping it is another. They may be Liberals. They are certainly not democrats.
This is why there must be a left alternative. And of course there is one. Jeremy Corbyn has repeatedly advanced it. Britain should remain aligned to the EU single market in terms of environment, health, food and employment standards but not accept the EU’s neoliberal competition terms.
Corbyn lays down this condition in order to protect Labour’s past election commitments. The EU’s competition terms would block almost every progressive element of Labour’s programme for change: comprehensive pubic ownership, state aid, a state investment bank to take stakes in key companies, the proactive use of public procurement for regional development and, not least, mandatory sectoral collective bargaining.
Take this away and Labour would indeed be unelectable. The current plots to create a centrist caretaker government would seem to have as much to do with ending the prospect of a left-led Labour government as about reversing the result of the EU referendum.
Trade unionists in particular should be aware of the consequences. Membership of the EU does not guarantee employment rights.
Today’s report from the Resolution Foundation showed that. The shockingly large number of workers not receiving their statutory rights is closely related to the low level of collective bargaining, now below 30 per cent. Britain has been in the EU for over 40 years.
In fact, of course, the EU actively discourages collective bargaining. Its 2012 document Labour Movement Developments details the interventions required to reduce the “wage-setting power” of trade unions.
The past seven years have seen the consequences. In Greece, under EU debt supervision, collective bargaining has declined from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. The decline in Portugal, in similar circumstances, has been almost as severe.
This is why the trade union movement needs to speak out. There is a left alternative. It must be defended.
Otherwise the right, whether represented by Johnson or by Swinson and her right-wing Labour allies, will win"
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/we-must-speak-out-and-defend-left-alternative-eu-corbynism
I think you leavers will approve, surely.
"JOHNSON’S visit to Brussels underlines the need for a clear left alternative on the EU.
Johnson may indeed get a deal. The EU economy is teetering towards recession. Germany’s industrial output is 5 per cent down on that a year ago and it will be German exports that will take the biggest hit if Britain leaves without a deal.
But the question remains: what kind of deal?
If it is Theresa May’s deal with Irish border controls removed and agricultural standards in the North of Ireland maintained in harmony with those in the South, there still remain the commitments given in the accompanying Withdrawal Declaration for Britain to adopt the pro-business, neoliberal competition laws of the EU single market
On the other hand, if Johnson does not get a deal, it is clear that every effort will be made to engineer a caretaker government to displace Johnson and block any kind of exit settlement with the EU.
The Liberal Democrats under Jo Swinson have indicated their intention to work both with dissident Conservatives and a Labour majority leader as long as it is not Jeremy Corbyn.
They have also made clear their total contempt for any kind of democracy by announcing that they would, in government, scrap the referendum result without holding a further referendum.
Even forgetting their previous abandonment of election promises by joining David Cameron’s austerity government in 2010 — with Swinson becoming a junior employment minister pushing through anti-trade union legislation — this should make them out of bounds for any member of the Labour Party.
Disagreeing with the referendum result, or even wanting a second, is one thing. Just scrapping it is another. They may be Liberals. They are certainly not democrats.
This is why there must be a left alternative. And of course there is one. Jeremy Corbyn has repeatedly advanced it. Britain should remain aligned to the EU single market in terms of environment, health, food and employment standards but not accept the EU’s neoliberal competition terms.
Corbyn lays down this condition in order to protect Labour’s past election commitments. The EU’s competition terms would block almost every progressive element of Labour’s programme for change: comprehensive pubic ownership, state aid, a state investment bank to take stakes in key companies, the proactive use of public procurement for regional development and, not least, mandatory sectoral collective bargaining.
Take this away and Labour would indeed be unelectable. The current plots to create a centrist caretaker government would seem to have as much to do with ending the prospect of a left-led Labour government as about reversing the result of the EU referendum.
Trade unionists in particular should be aware of the consequences. Membership of the EU does not guarantee employment rights.
Today’s report from the Resolution Foundation showed that. The shockingly large number of workers not receiving their statutory rights is closely related to the low level of collective bargaining, now below 30 per cent. Britain has been in the EU for over 40 years.
In fact, of course, the EU actively discourages collective bargaining. Its 2012 document Labour Movement Developments details the interventions required to reduce the “wage-setting power” of trade unions.
The past seven years have seen the consequences. In Greece, under EU debt supervision, collective bargaining has declined from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. The decline in Portugal, in similar circumstances, has been almost as severe.
This is why the trade union movement needs to speak out. There is a left alternative. It must be defended.
Otherwise the right, whether represented by Johnson or by Swinson and her right-wing Labour allies, will win"
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/we-must-speak-out-and-defend-left-alternative-eu-corbynism
I think you leavers will approve, surely.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Are you deliberately missing the important aspects?
If the backstop is unfettered then the EU can - and I suspect would - take a very long time before they 'all of a sudden' found the alternative arrangements to be acceptable.
During which time no end of new controls will have been introduced with which we will have had to comply
And strangely - all sorts of agreements will have been brought in with which our agreement will be required to make the alternative arrangements seem OK - such as controlling the UK’s policy on corporation tax
I'm really trying hard not to say anything derogatory here.
I was replying to a post re the BACKSTOP & how the EU may be willing to drop it 'now' if negotiations succeed.
Note the name: BACKSTOP.
If no arrangement can be negotiated (note the word NEGOTIATED) which solves the Irish border problem, then, as you repeatedly keep saying, we would, under the current agreement, which can't get through the HOC, be in a BACKSTOP situation, which we are not willing to agree, so it isn't happening.
IF HOWEVER, THERE IS AN ACCEPTED AGREEMENT ON THE IRISH BORDER, THERE IS NO LONGER A BACKSTOP. If such an agreement happens today or tomorrow, the backstop will no longer exist.
That has always been the position: AGREEMENT= NO BACKSTOP. IT IS ONLY THERE, IF AN AGREEMENT CANNOT BE REACHED.
If Bozo puts the border in the Irish sea: NO BACKSTOP.
Correct, hence the need for compromise on both sides.Retaining NI in a NI backstop was initially proposed by the EU in 2017 and is their preferred option. Dublin would also be happy. Not happy will be the DUP and Unionists in NI. For any solution to work it will need Unionist and Nationalist consent. Dual consent is at the heart of the GFA.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I can't think of any reason why people living near the border, would accept any kind of 'compromise' unless they were extreme anti Dublin, Unionists.
It is just giving them loads of extra problems they don't currently have.
Imagine sticking one across the middle of Manchester ? How many would support that ?
It is just giving them loads of extra problems they don't currently have.
Imagine sticking one across the middle of Manchester ? How many would support that ?
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 21,511
The current Morning Star view on Brexit
"JOHNSON’S visit to Brussels underlines the need for a clear left alternative on the EU.
Johnson may indeed get a deal. The EU economy is teetering towards recession. Germany’s industrial output is 5 per cent down on that a year ago and it will be German exports that will take the biggest hit if Britain leaves without a deal.
But the question remains: what kind of deal?
If it is Theresa May’s deal with Irish border controls removed and agricultural standards in the North of Ireland maintained in harmony with those in the South, there still remain the commitments given in the accompanying Withdrawal Declaration for Britain to adopt the pro-business, neoliberal competition laws of the EU single market
On the other hand, if Johnson does not get a deal, it is clear that every effort will be made to engineer a caretaker government to displace Johnson and block any kind of exit settlement with the EU.
The Liberal Democrats under Jo Swinson have indicated their intention to work both with dissident Conservatives and a Labour majority leader as long as it is not Jeremy Corbyn.
They have also made clear their total contempt for any kind of democracy by announcing that they would, in government, scrap the referendum result without holding a further referendum.
Even forgetting their previous abandonment of election promises by joining David Cameron’s austerity government in 2010 — with Swinson becoming a junior employment minister pushing through anti-trade union legislation — this should make them out of bounds for any member of the Labour Party.
Disagreeing with the referendum result, or even wanting a second, is one thing. Just scrapping it is another. They may be Liberals. They are certainly not democrats.
This is why there must be a left alternative. And of course there is one. Jeremy Corbyn has repeatedly advanced it. Britain should remain aligned to the EU single market in terms of environment, health, food and employment standards but not accept the EU’s neoliberal competition terms.
Corbyn lays down this condition in order to protect Labour’s past election commitments. The EU’s competition terms would block almost every progressive element of Labour’s programme for change: comprehensive pubic ownership, state aid, a state investment bank to take stakes in key companies, the proactive use of public procurement for regional development and, not least, mandatory sectoral collective bargaining.
Take this away and Labour would indeed be unelectable. The current plots to create a centrist caretaker government would seem to have as much to do with ending the prospect of a left-led Labour government as about reversing the result of the EU referendum.
Trade unionists in particular should be aware of the consequences. Membership of the EU does not guarantee employment rights.
Today’s report from the Resolution Foundation showed that. The shockingly large number of workers not receiving their statutory rights is closely related to the low level of collective bargaining, now below 30 per cent. Britain has been in the EU for over 40 years.
In fact, of course, the EU actively discourages collective bargaining. Its 2012 document Labour Movement Developments details the interventions required to reduce the “wage-setting power” of trade unions.
The past seven years have seen the consequences. In Greece, under EU debt supervision, collective bargaining has declined from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. The decline in Portugal, in similar circumstances, has been almost as severe.
This is why the trade union movement needs to speak out. There is a left alternative. It must be defended.
Otherwise the right, whether represented by Johnson or by Swinson and her right-wing Labour allies, will win"
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/we-must-speak-out-and-defend-left-alternative-eu-corbynism
I think you leavers will approve, surely.
This is not the case in Germany. Collective bargaining is strong with wages, working conditions decided by Unions, work councils and Employer associations and at a regional level rather than a company level. This is even in the German constitution. There is a different mindset in Germany as per this FT article from last year shows (should be free to read). Again we are back to the age old problem of blaming the EU for all our ills.
https://www.ft.com/content/68417a94-cb0f-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab
AlexWilliamsGloves
Well-Known Member
Who's the biggest Unionist party over there these days? Didn't it used to be the Ulster Unionists but it's now the DUP?
YEs UUP would have had the larger "share"...but the overall divide has changed over recent years. The 2 largest parties, DUP and Sinn Fein now share 27 seats each...out of 90.
According to wiki, of the 90 seats at Stormont:
Unionists (40)
- DUP (27)
- UUP (10)
- TUV (1)
- Independent (2)
- Sinn Féin (27)
- SDLP (11)
- Independent (1)
B
B
blueinsa
Guest
The current Morning Star view on Brexit
"JOHNSON’S visit to Brussels underlines the need for a clear left alternative on the EU.
Johnson may indeed get a deal. The EU economy is teetering towards recession. Germany’s industrial output is 5 per cent down on that a year ago and it will be German exports that will take the biggest hit if Britain leaves without a deal.
But the question remains: what kind of deal?
If it is Theresa May’s deal with Irish border controls removed and agricultural standards in the North of Ireland maintained in harmony with those in the South, there still remain the commitments given in the accompanying Withdrawal Declaration for Britain to adopt the pro-business, neoliberal competition laws of the EU single market
On the other hand, if Johnson does not get a deal, it is clear that every effort will be made to engineer a caretaker government to displace Johnson and block any kind of exit settlement with the EU.
The Liberal Democrats under Jo Swinson have indicated their intention to work both with dissident Conservatives and a Labour majority leader as long as it is not Jeremy Corbyn.
They have also made clear their total contempt for any kind of democracy by announcing that they would, in government, scrap the referendum result without holding a further referendum.
Even forgetting their previous abandonment of election promises by joining David Cameron’s austerity government in 2010 — with Swinson becoming a junior employment minister pushing through anti-trade union legislation — this should make them out of bounds for any member of the Labour Party.
Disagreeing with the referendum result, or even wanting a second, is one thing. Just scrapping it is another. They may be Liberals. They are certainly not democrats.
This is why there must be a left alternative. And of course there is one. Jeremy Corbyn has repeatedly advanced it. Britain should remain aligned to the EU single market in terms of environment, health, food and employment standards but not accept the EU’s neoliberal competition terms.
Corbyn lays down this condition in order to protect Labour’s past election commitments. The EU’s competition terms would block almost every progressive element of Labour’s programme for change: comprehensive pubic ownership, state aid, a state investment bank to take stakes in key companies, the proactive use of public procurement for regional development and, not least, mandatory sectoral collective bargaining.
Take this away and Labour would indeed be unelectable. The current plots to create a centrist caretaker government would seem to have as much to do with ending the prospect of a left-led Labour government as about reversing the result of the EU referendum.
Trade unionists in particular should be aware of the consequences. Membership of the EU does not guarantee employment rights.
Today’s report from the Resolution Foundation showed that. The shockingly large number of workers not receiving their statutory rights is closely related to the low level of collective bargaining, now below 30 per cent. Britain has been in the EU for over 40 years.
In fact, of course, the EU actively discourages collective bargaining. Its 2012 document Labour Movement Developments details the interventions required to reduce the “wage-setting power” of trade unions.
The past seven years have seen the consequences. In Greece, under EU debt supervision, collective bargaining has declined from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. The decline in Portugal, in similar circumstances, has been almost as severe.
This is why the trade union movement needs to speak out. There is a left alternative. It must be defended.
Otherwise the right, whether represented by Johnson or by Swinson and her right-wing Labour allies, will win"
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/we-must-speak-out-and-defend-left-alternative-eu-corbynism
I think you leavers will approve, surely.
Ahhhh lexit.
Forgotten about as remainers try desperately to make brexit a right wing story only.
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Just to confirm the collapse of Thomas Cook into administration has nothing to do with Brexit.
As you were.
As you were.
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 21,511
Just to confirm the collapse of Thomas Cook into administration has nothing to do with Brexit.
As you were.
Agreed. Having to book and pay for advance accommodation in a strong Euro and collect revenue in a weakening pound was in no way a factor.
M18CTID
Well-Known Member
Just to confirm the collapse of Thomas Cook into administration has nothing to do with Brexit.
As you were.
It's being discussed in the TC thread if you fancy nipping over. Shit management and mismanagement seems to be the consensus
George Hannah
Well-Known Member
Doesn't seem to have been such a problem for their profitable competitors such as the Dart Group - look forward to higher prices next year with TC out of the market.Agreed. Having to book and pay for advance accommodation in a strong Euro and collect revenue in a weakening pound was in no way a factor.
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 21,511
Ahhhh lexit.
Forgotten about as remainers try desperately to make brexit a right wing story only.
I think everyone has pretty much forgotten Lexit. Except perhaps those in the Revolutionary Communist Party who joined the Brexit Party to stand as candidates to further their support for the IRA and the bombing of mainland Britain and Serbian war criminals. Although to be fair I don’t think these two somewhat fringe positions formed part of the Lexit manifesto.
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 21,511
Doesn't seem to have been such a problem for their profitable competitors such as the Dart Group - look forward to higher prices next year with TC out of the market.
I love how you guys give Brexit a pass no matter what :)
It has been cited as a factor and like it or not it does impact on businesses. Businesses live and work in the real world and currency fluctuations are just one of the many factors a lot of businesses have to handle. That one company was in a better position/better run/less exposed or whatever is also part of that reality.
M18CTID
Well-Known Member
The current Morning Star view on Brexit
"JOHNSON’S visit to Brussels underlines the need for a clear left alternative on the EU.
Johnson may indeed get a deal. The EU economy is teetering towards recession. Germany’s industrial output is 5 per cent down on that a year ago and it will be German exports that will take the biggest hit if Britain leaves without a deal.
But the question remains: what kind of deal?
If it is Theresa May’s deal with Irish border controls removed and agricultural standards in the North of Ireland maintained in harmony with those in the South, there still remain the commitments given in the accompanying Withdrawal Declaration for Britain to adopt the pro-business, neoliberal competition laws of the EU single market
On the other hand, if Johnson does not get a deal, it is clear that every effort will be made to engineer a caretaker government to displace Johnson and block any kind of exit settlement with the EU.
The Liberal Democrats under Jo Swinson have indicated their intention to work both with dissident Conservatives and a Labour majority leader as long as it is not Jeremy Corbyn.
They have also made clear their total contempt for any kind of democracy by announcing that they would, in government, scrap the referendum result without holding a further referendum.
Even forgetting their previous abandonment of election promises by joining David Cameron’s austerity government in 2010 — with Swinson becoming a junior employment minister pushing through anti-trade union legislation — this should make them out of bounds for any member of the Labour Party.
Disagreeing with the referendum result, or even wanting a second, is one thing. Just scrapping it is another. They may be Liberals. They are certainly not democrats.
This is why there must be a left alternative. And of course there is one. Jeremy Corbyn has repeatedly advanced it. Britain should remain aligned to the EU single market in terms of environment, health, food and employment standards but not accept the EU’s neoliberal competition terms.
Corbyn lays down this condition in order to protect Labour’s past election commitments. The EU’s competition terms would block almost every progressive element of Labour’s programme for change: comprehensive pubic ownership, state aid, a state investment bank to take stakes in key companies, the proactive use of public procurement for regional development and, not least, mandatory sectoral collective bargaining.
Take this away and Labour would indeed be unelectable. The current plots to create a centrist caretaker government would seem to have as much to do with ending the prospect of a left-led Labour government as about reversing the result of the EU referendum.
Trade unionists in particular should be aware of the consequences. Membership of the EU does not guarantee employment rights.
Today’s report from the Resolution Foundation showed that. The shockingly large number of workers not receiving their statutory rights is closely related to the low level of collective bargaining, now below 30 per cent. Britain has been in the EU for over 40 years.
In fact, of course, the EU actively discourages collective bargaining. Its 2012 document Labour Movement Developments details the interventions required to reduce the “wage-setting power” of trade unions.
The past seven years have seen the consequences. In Greece, under EU debt supervision, collective bargaining has declined from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. The decline in Portugal, in similar circumstances, has been almost as severe.
This is why the trade union movement needs to speak out. There is a left alternative. It must be defended.
Otherwise the right, whether represented by Johnson or by Swinson and her right-wing Labour allies, will win"
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/we-must-speak-out-and-defend-left-alternative-eu-corbynism
I think you leavers will approve, surely.
An interesting angle on Brexit from the so-called Lexit side of the debate, and shows that the Brexit ideology encompasses the whole political spectrum. I find myself in agreement with a fair bit of that, even if it is from a Communist newspaper. Incidentally, that takes me back - I wasn't aware the Morning Star was still in existence, and it brings back memories of killing time in the library when I was at college and reading the print off most of the newspapers of which the MS was one.
George Hannah
Well-Known Member
I think the lesson is that some do it better than others. The key to understanding why principally concerns the quality of decision making in product strategy and management.I love how you guys give Brexit a pass no matter what :)
It has been cited as a factor and like it or not it does impact on businesses. Businesses live and work in the real world and currency fluctuations are just one of the many factors a lot of businesses have to handle. That one company was in a better position/better run/less exposed or whatever is also part of that reality.
Last edited:
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 21,511
I think the lesson is that some do it better than others. The key to understanding why principally concerns the quality of decision making in product strategy and management.
Yet Govt policy plays its part. We know this because the Govt is pledging to help businesses financially impacted by Brexit. Do Thomas Cook qualify? Would Thomas Cook have survived if the impact of currency devaluation driven by Govt policy had not happened?
George Hannah
Well-Known Member
The simple fact is that their competitors thrived in the same market conditions.Yet Govt policy plays its part. We know this because the Govt is pledging to help businesses financially impacted by Brexit. Do Thomas Cook qualify? Would Thomas Cook have survived if the impact of currency devaluation driven by Govt policy had not happened?
FlemishDuck
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2015
- Messages
- 1,806
I think the lesson is that some do it better than others. The key to understanding why principally concerns the quality of decision making in product strategy and management.
Bob makes a valid point. It would be unfair to lump the performance of various company's in various sectors together in terms of performance now and post brexit as if it was just a matter of bussiness excellence. Yours is a lazy argument imho that dodges the complexity regarding economics for Brexit. It would be more honest to simply recognise the Brexit factors that will play a part, it can still be argued just how much of an inpact it should supposed to have.
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