Another new Brexit thread

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Rascal said:
I do not feel abandoned by the Labour party at all, the case for LEXIT was not made because of the dominance of the Blairite wing on the issue. I would still have found it very difficult to vote leave even if the case for LEXIT was mainstream because siding with Farage made me feel sick. That was the big mistake allowing that odious **** to become the mainstream voice, if he had been sidelined and shown for what an obnoxious pile of dirt he is then I would have voted leave without question. The #FBFE crowd allowed Farage to get his message out by being so pro EU and so dismissive of the working class fears.
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The irony of course being that if Labour do badly in the next election the Blairites will blame Corbyn, when he’s the one trapped into the pro Remain stance that’s going to kill the party in it’s pro Leave heartlands. He’d be much better off telling them to do one and making the case for leaving that he really believes in, although I have to admit I’m pleased Labour isn’t making the pro Leave case, because they’d be a much bigger threat if they did.
 
hgblue said:
The irony of course being that if Labour do badly in the next election the Blairites will blame Corbyn, when he’s the one trapped into the pro Remain stance that’s going to kill the party in it’s pro Leave heartlands. He’d be much better off telling them to do one and making the case for leaving that he really believes in, although I have to admit I’m pleased Labour isn’t making the pro Leave case, because they’d be a much bigger threat if they did.
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Of course they will. The Blairites are to the Labour party what the ERG are to the Tories.
 
SWP's back said:
So still a good chance we manage to avoid any sort of Brexit then?
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It wouldn't surprise me if it ends up with the EU setting a deadline & forcing us to either leave or stay by that date.

My hope would be that the likely lack of a Tory majority in Parliament ends with the opposition parties forming some sort of coalition & agreeing a deal & referendum thing, but again, there is the problem of Corbyn.

Which is why I could see the EU eventually having no choice but to force the issue.
 
George Hannah said:
What else would you call the UK following their sequencing of talks? There was no negotiation once we accepted that, everything else was designed to create the illusion that a meaningful debate was continuing. If you can reply without resorting to personal abuse it would lift the tone of the discussion btw.
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Ignorance and a lack of comprehension as to how negotiations would play out. As has been said many times we made two fundamental mistakes. One was triggering A50 with no strategy, plan or consensus. The second was agreeing to sequencing on the EU’s terms. Both these mistakes meant we lost the battle and probably Brexit.

The only viable strategy left for Brexiteers is revoking A50, regrouping and trying again via a different route. Unfortunately for Brexiteers this would also doom Brexit for a generation or two.

On a personal note I have no sympathy for our position. It was self inflicted and dooming Brexit is the result I want so it would be hypocritical to pretend otherwise.
 
Rascal said:
Of course they will. The Blairites are to the Labour party what the ERG are to the Tories.
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If they get Boris Johnson 'helping them' for any length of time, I'm betting the people of Sunderland & Burnley etc, will soon put leaving the EU back down to the bottom of the list where it was before this mugging took place.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ignorance and a lack of comprehension as to how negotiations would play out. As has been said many times we made two fundamental mistakes. One was triggering A50 with no strategy, plan or consensus. The second was agreeing to sequencing on the EU’s terms. Both these mistakes meant we lost the battle and probably Brexit.

The only viable strategy left for Brexiteers is revoking A50, regrouping and trying again via a different route. Unfortunately for Brexiteers this would also doom Brexit for a generation or two.

On a personal note I have no sympathy for our position. It was self inflicted and dooming Brexit is the result I want so it would be hypocritical to pretend otherwise.
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I would prefer we had already left, with an agreement.

But they have inflicted this on us, so they can shove it now.
 
Vic said:
How many EU migrants live in the village?

Are you saying that young British citizens leaving rural areas is a migrant problem in our cities?
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We have a couple from Belgium who live in the village... and no Im not saying that 'young British citizens leaving rural areas is a migrant problem in our cities?' Im saying that there is a definite move towards living in cities by the young (there's nothing for them here ... they've even cancelled our bus service now) and this increases population. Its not all caused by (Im)migration... just a trend
 
Neville Kneville said:
It wouldn't surprise me if it ends up with the EU setting a deadline & forcing us to either leave or stay by that date.

My hope would be that the likely lack of a Tory majority in Parliament ends with the opposition parties forming some sort of coalition & agreeing a deal & referendum thing, but again, there is the problem of Corbyn.

Which is why I could see the EU eventually having no choice but to force the issue.
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Cannot envisage the EU forcing things to a head. Its members would generally like the UK to remain, especially should she remain penitently, and while her angst and internal divisions make for uncomfortable viewing, they serve as a salutary lesson for any member thinking of following suit.
 
hgblue said:
Lol, dream on.
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Yeah right, the most important thing to Sunderland, Burnley, Rotherham has always been leaving the EU.

That's why they supoorted Ian Duncan Smith when he was leader.


Fucking farce. They will all be wanting to hang Johnson by his bollocks once this settles down, & he gets stuck into them full Tory, irrespective of whether we are in or out by then.

It's fucking bullshit. The Tories & right, have taken the fucking piss out of the public.

Johnson & Farage, 'the people's choice' ffs.

Let's see how that pans out.
 
hgblue said:
Short term, it depends who wins the election. Long term, the Conservative party is now the party of Leave and will win an election sooner or later.
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In the last quarter of a century the Tories have won one election outright. If they become UKIP that will change the electoral math and not necessarily for the better but winning an election doesn’t change reality. Tories have had three years to ‘deliver’ Brexit. Their failure to do so hasn’t been a lack of trying but a failure to understand who we were negotiating with and the impossibility of delivering something that is designed to harm.

You only have to read some of the ads we are being bombarded with. How you do business will change. Get this form. Get that form. Hire a freight forwarder. Travelling on business? Get a goods exemption for your laptop. That will be £300. It’s all red tape, admin costs and bureaucracy and that’s just scratching the surface.

All we are doing is building a wall and like all barriers it’s time consuming and costly to circumvent. For the party of business that’s a tough sell.
 
Gabriel said:
Cannot envisage the EU forcing things to a head. Its members would generally like the UK to remain, especially should she remain penitently, and while her angst and internal divisions make for uncomfortable viewing, they serve as a salutary lesson for any member thinking of following suit.
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But a time must come, where the people of the EU, see us with the same eyes Brexiteers see the EU: ie as something harmful which needs stopping.
 
Vic said:
I say delusional, you say "incoherent" or "pitiful superficiality".
Anyway, you (following the usual suspect) were claiming that the EU was choreographing opposition to Brexit. You've switched to the obvious realisation that the Brexit negotiations were always going to be done on the EU's processes. But thanks for the link to the campaign lies. "We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave" — The official Brexit campaign in 2016
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"Only those who spread treachery, fire, and death out of hatred for the prosperity of others are undeserving of pity." Jose Marti
- so the incoherent and superficial are fully deserving you'll be pleased to know.
 
Neville Kneville said:
But a time must come, where the people of the EU, see us with the same eyes Brexiteers see the EU: ie as something harmful which needs stopping.
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Not really, unless deep down you sense that Britons themselves will be unable to resolve their differences and require a third party to deliver the coup de grâce. Most Europeans I speak to have nothing but sympathy for the general British public, but they see it as an entirely domestic affair.
 
BobKowalski said:
In the last quarter of a century the Tories have won one election outright. If they become UKIP that will change the electoral math and not necessarily for the better but winning an election doesn’t change reality. Tories have had three years to ‘deliver’ Brexit. Their failure to do so hasn’t been a lack of trying but a failure to understand who we were negotiating with and the impossibility of delivering something that is designed to harm.

You only have to read some of the ads we are being bombarded with. How you do business will change. Get this form. Get that form. Hire a freight forwarder. Travelling on business? Get a goods exemption for your laptop. That will be £300. It’s all red tape, admin costs and bureaucracy and that’s just scratching the surface.

All we are doing is building a wall and like all barriers it’s time consuming and costly to circumvent. For the party of business that’s a tough sell.
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Reading through all that shit on the Govt website is soul destroying & brain damaging, then it turns out that there is no answer anyhow, because they haven't started fucking negotiating yet, because we still don't even have a Withdrawal Agreement !

These clowns who think this ends if we leave on Oct 31st, with or without a deal, NO the real argument starts then.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ignorance and a lack of comprehension as to how negotiations would play out. As has been said many times we made two fundamental mistakes. One was triggering A50 with no strategy, plan or consensus. The second was agreeing to sequencing on the EU’s terms. Both these mistakes meant we lost the battle and probably Brexit. The only viable strategy left for Brexiteers is revoking A50, regrouping and trying again via a different route. Unfortunately for Brexiteers this would also doom Brexit for a generation or two. On a personal note I have no sympathy for our position. It was self inflicted and dooming Brexit is the result I want so it would be hypocritical to pretend otherwise.
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Exactly so, we hadn't negotiated a trade deal since 1972 maybe that is some mitigation I suppose but we are in complete concert
(last line apart obviously.)
 
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Gabriel said:
Not really, unless deep down you sense that Britons themselves will be unable to resolve their differences and require a third party to deliver the coup de grâce. Most Europeans I speak to have nothing but sympathy for the general British public, but they see it as an entirely domestic affair.
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I have no faith in our politicians sorting it out. A referendum might do.

Sooner or later, they have to or the EU will. They can't go on like this forever.
 
BobKowalski said:
In the last quarter of a century the Tories have won one election outright. If they become UKIP that will change the electoral math and not necessarily for the better but winning an election doesn’t change reality. Tories have had three years to ‘deliver’ Brexit. Their failure to do so hasn’t been a lack of trying but a failure to understand who we were negotiating with and the impossibility of delivering something that is designed to harm.

You only have to read some of the ads we are being bombarded with. How you do business will change. Get this form. Get that form. Hire a freight forwarder. Travelling on business? Get a goods exemption for your laptop. That will be £300. It’s all red tape, admin costs and bureaucracy and that’s just scratching the surface.

All we are doing is building a wall and like all barriers it’s time consuming and costly to circumvent. For the party of business that’s a tough sell.
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But.... This election will be all about Brexit. The public are already geared up for this.

My prediction is that:
  • we’ll have and extension.
  • There will be a GE before Xmas.
  • Conservatives will win, and Brexit party gain seats.
  • Together the Tories and Brexit and DUP will have enough seats to win a vote for a no deal brexit.
  • The EU will the offer some sort of compromise deal on the Johnson deal.
  • This will get approved in parliament
  • We’ll leave.
  • If the EU don’t offer a compromise, we’ll leave on a no deal and all the pain that will involve.

Hope I’m wrong but this is the way I see it playing out. The opposition, and labour in particular, in a GE are too weak.
 
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