Another new Brexit thread

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Did i imagine that, or did Kenneth Clarke just say he was going to vote in favour of the Boris deal today?

I wouldn't be surprised - he might think that the deal is little different from what we had inside the organisation!

 

[blueinsa]

People aren’t against it because they don’t like it.

Yes they are, dont pretend its anything but that.

 

[blueinsa]

Fucking lol.

You're the first I'm coming for.

 

[hammocity]

I'm perfectly in favour of a second referendum . Infact I actively encourage one .

After we have implemented the result of the first one and not a day before.

You cannot call yourself a democracy and in the same breath tell people you are refusing to implement their democratic choice . You cannot have a second ref without first plenting the result of the first one . To do so is saying to the watching world "boardroom votes are worth more than working xlass votes . Affluent suburban votes are worth more than working class votes . The votes of the CEO class is worth more than the vote of the poor sod who cleans his office". In short we would cease to have any claim on calling ourselves a democracy .

Have a second ref after we have left. You would have to wait a suitable amount of time, maybe 45 years or so.

And then watch the results pile in. Remain out of the EU.

Anything less is a sham .An affluent middle class attack on the working classes . (Or "illiterate, ignorant northern scum" as they think of us)

Another referendum and if Brexit loses should go to another, best of three. However if Brexit wins again, how about best of five?

 

[i kne albert davy]

Peddled by liars
Swallowed by the gullible
Damaging us all

Dead right and yet we joined it's took from 1973 to wise up and we still can't break free.

 

[hammocity]

I'm perfectly in favour of a second referendum . Infact I actively encourage one .

After we have implemented the result of the first one and not a day before.

You cannot call yourself a democracy and in the same breath tell people you are refusing to implement their democratic choice . You cannot have a second ref without first plenting the result of the first one . To do so is saying to the watching world "boardroom votes are worth more than working xlass votes . Affluent suburban votes are worth more than working class votes . The votes of the CEO class is worth more than the vote of the poor sod who cleans his office". In short we would cease to have any claim on calling ourselves a democracy .

Have a second ref after we have left. You would have to wait a suitable amount of time, maybe 45 years or so.

And then watch the results pile in. Remain out of the EU.

Anything less is a sham .An affluent middle class attack on the working classes . (Or "illiterate, ignorant northern scum" as they think of us)

Another referendum and if Brexit loses should go to another, best of three. However if Brexit wins again, how about best of five?

 

[chesterbells]

He did.

Must have been offered the whip back. The kinky old Tory.

most of his preceding words in his speech led me to think the opposite

 

[Rascal]

My red line.

leave and have as many refs as they like to rejoin, not an issue and i will happily vote to stay out but rejoin wins by one vote, one single vote and i will fight tooth and nail for us to rejoin as per that result.

Our democracy does not ignore votes because a minority didn't fucking like the result.

At the heart of this is the problems of referendums in a system that does not cater for referendums. The clash of direct and representative democracy is the issue. The referendum was flawed, it was poorly legislated for as I have said repeatedly, probably one of the biggest mistakes made by a PM and his right hand man in our history. In our system we can ignore votes because we have no written constitutional basis for adhering to votes. Parliamentary votes are regularly ignored by whichever Government is in power, because they can. Whether we like that or not is not the question, it is a fact.

By handing sovereignty to the people it undermined the sovereignty of Parliament, now we are expecting Parliament to take sovereignty back and act, we are surprised that Parliament acts as it does. Today in my view we are facing Parliamentary meltdown because of the confusion of where sovereignty actually lies. I have posted about this before so wont repeat it. IMO public perceptions of how Parliament works is misunderstood, this has not been helped by the stupid usage of phrases like "will of the people" a concept that simply has no place in a representative democracy that relies on individual conscience.

 

[blueinsa]

Another referendum and if Brexit loses should go to another, best of three. However if Brexit wins again, how about best of five?

Its only right that as soon as remain wins the process stops.

That's it then and the will of the people will have to be respected because we have spoken.

I can see it flying and all us thick cunts that vote to leave wont even notice.

 

[yerwot?]

It feels like it’s never going to end now. The lettwin amendment is designed to basically delay brexit again.....

We have a parliament that just doesn’t want us to leave the eu. Another referdum doesn’t solve anything and will make the divides even bigger.

what can be "bigger", a third wants anything that isolates us, a third think its suicide, and a third dont give a shit, 100 %. It will however, get nastier, simply because the stakes are so high, and as the ramifications slowly seep out past the barriers the gov. are attempting to shore up (wonder why, cant be their own figures on the cost of brexit.....surely), even parliament is not allowed to see them. The public have no real leverage,, the mealy mouthed trope " the ballot box" shite is out-dated in a world of global corporations more powerful and richer than governments. The streets are the last resort, but when every alternative has been stymied, desperation leads to necessity.
At it's heart, the "haves" want more, the "have-nots" want some. If we hadn't been here before , it could lead to optimism for a better fairer more democratic country. History pisses over that optimism.

 

[blueinsa]

At the heart of this is the problems of referendums in a system that does not cater for referendums. The clash of direct and representative democracy is the issue. The referendum was flawed, it was poorly legislated for as I have said repeatedly, probably one of the biggest mistakes made by a PM and his right hand man in our history. In our system we can ignore votes because we have no written constitutional basis for adhering to votes. Parliamentary votes are regularly ignored by whichever Government is in power, because they can. Whether we like that or not is not the question, it is a fact.

By handing sovereignty to the people it undermined the sovereignty of Parliament, now we are expecting Parliament to take sovereignty back and act, we are surprised that Parliament acts as it does. Today in my view we are facing Parliamentary meltdown because of the confusion of where sovereignty actually lies. I have posted about this before so wont repeat it. IMO public perceptions of how Parliament works is misunderstood, this has not been helped by the stupid usage of phrases like "will of the people" a concept that simply has no place in a representative democracy that relies on individual conscience.

Its a discussion that has to be had separately rascal.

They gave us their sovereignty and they gave us the vote and final decision with a promise to deliver whatever we decided and it was them that made it a binary choice of remain or leave.

Listen to Soubry now saying a snapshot on a single day cant be allowed to stand as a result of a vote.

Will she sing the same tune of remain won a second ref?

Listen to her ffs!

These people are not democratic, they are authoritarian!

 

[Ric]

most of his preceding words in his speech led me to think the opposite

Yeah, he described it as “a bad deal. A very bad deal” and then said he would back it. What a farcical state of affairs we find ourselves in.

 

[blueinsa]

RBL pisses all over Corbyn as well.

Speaks well even if i dont agree with her.

 

[hilts]

Think you're slightly missing the point here ..... the latest WA does remove the protections for workers rights, the environment and consumer protections, this is known as 'the level playing field' which ensures that all businesses have to abide by the same rules eg I cant compete against your chimney sweep business that abides by employment law by signing up a load of six year old kids to climb up the chimneys for 2p a day.

Removal of the 'level playing field' means that we will diverge from the Eu rules and by doing so will mean that we will not be able to negotiate a Free Trade Agreement in the future.

As I pointed out in an earlier post it looks like we are being sold to America.

There is a difference between could and will

That is all

 

[jay_mcfc]

RBL pisses all over Corbyn as well.

Speaks well even if i dont agree with her.

She's great.

 

[Rascal]

Its a discussion that has to be had separately rascal.

They gave us their sovereignty and they gave us the vote and final decision with a promise to deliver whatever we decided and it was them that made it a binary choice of remain or leave.

Listen to Soubry now saying a snapshot on a single day cant be allowed to stand as a result of a vote.

Will she sing the same tune of remain won a second ref?

Listen to her ffs!

These people are not democratic, they are authoritarian!

I am trying to look at it objectively because I didn't vote either way so have no horse in the race. I do understand why people like yourself and others are so comitted to your cause.

Objectively, Soubry is looking at the result of a direct democratic action through the eyes of a Parliamentary representative. That is why Parliament is so divided, they are looking at the actions through the wrong end of the telescope.

Oh ffs, Gove, i am going getting a brew.

 

[117 M34]

What time are we expecting the amendments to be voted on?

 

[George Hannah]

The mood in the HoC is distinctly ugly, they all know this is a bleak business. The constant presentation of virtually all global uncertainties and problems via the worst possible case scenarios as directly attributable to Brexit is very wearing. If all these objections were sincere it wouldn't be so bad but the alternatives (or lack of them) that most seek to mask makes this debate deeply flawed.

 

[aguero93:20]

most of his preceding words in his speech led me to think the opposite

You'd imagine with him backing it the clown will get nearly all of the Tory rebels back onside. That will leave him needing 10-15 MPs from the other parties.

 

[blueinsa]

I do understand why people like yourself and others are so comitted to your cause.

My cause is democracy and can only ask that people take this as being completely 100% honest had remain won and parliament said fuck it we are leaving i would be as vocal in demanding we remain because anything else is not democracy.