But it is their fault. The initial referendum set up with implementation of the result on a simple majority and no requirement for majorities across the four nations was on their watch. I saw a problem at that time, of having no super majority, and was surprised but of course we all thought it was going to be a remain walkover. They then compounded it by backing their parties' positions of honouring the vote in a GE.All you are doing is showing a distinct lack of understanding of how our system works, I understand why you are angry, but it is not the MPs fault they have been handed this poisoned chalice.
I don't disagree with that. But they are often also the most selective, and often inconsistent with their own logic (always to suit the Leave narrative), which then makes certain arguements somewhat hypocritical.
I'm not denying that happening on the remain points either, but far less of it that i've seen.
Cause and effect. The insanity of powerBut it is their fault. The initial referendum set up with implementation of the result on a simple majority and no requirement for majorities across the four nations was on their watch. I saw a problem at that time, of having no super majority, and was surprised but of course we all thought it was going to be a remain walkover. They then compounded it by backing their parties' positions of honouring the vote in a GE.
Disagree. I remember watching Question Time week after week waiting for someone to raise the point that the referendum should have the requirement of x% majority. Can't remember any politician bringing it up. Surely a politician should be considering the effect of every decision they make anyway.Cause and effect. The insanity of power
I agree actually. I've always thought he was an oaf and a clown, but not a thick one.I accept that Boris is hated on here so being positive about him isn’t going to be popular, but he’s played an absolute blinder. Made those who said he didn’t want a deal look foolish, and confounded those who said he couldn’t get a deal. He’s appeased Leavers by improving May’s WA from a Leave perspective and appeased Remainers by negotiating a deal. He’s made great progress on the domestic agenda and earned the respect of fellow leaders like Varadkar and Macron, who have found him thoughtful and capable of compromise. The nation is going to be outraged by the goings on today and won’t blame Boris when the extension is requested. In short, exactly what I was hoping for when he was elected.
But it is their fault. The initial referendum set up with implementation of the result on a simple majority and no requirement for majorities across the four nations was on their watch. I saw a problem at that time, of having no super majority, and was surprised but of course we all thought it was going to be a remain walkover. They then compounded it by backing their parties' positions of honouring the vote in a GE.
Brexit Phil was all over it as soon as it was published, mate.Do you think she has read the Boris agreement?
More chance of Phil Foden having read it.
All you are doing is showing a distinct lack of understanding of how our system works, I understand why you are angry, but it is not the MPs fault they have been handed this poisoned chalice.
I understand why you feel the way you do, and he’s probably going to get Brexit over the line, but at what cost? Maybe he’s correct in his statement (whether he actually believes it is another matter) that the only way the nation can begin to heal is by firstly leaving, but he’s been the principal protagonist in a process which has driven a huge wedge in our society, caused in no small part by his MO (mendacity and confrontation) throughout. He has been the leading actor within something which will divide our nation for at least a generation, and has set the tone for that via his approach, turbo-fuelled by his ambition to the exclusion of all other considerations. I don’t believe that is something to be commended, and nor will it leave the UK a better place than he found it, when he ended his vacillation and threw his hat into the Brexit ring.I accept that Boris is hated on here so being positive about him isn’t going to be popular, but he’s played an absolute blinder. Made those who said he didn’t want a deal look foolish, and confounded those who said he couldn’t get a deal. He’s appeased Leavers by improving May’s WA from a Leave perspective and appeased Remainers by negotiating a deal. He’s made great progress on the domestic agenda and earned the respect of fellow leaders like Varadkar and Macron, who have found him thoughtful and capable of compromise. The nation is going to be outraged by the goings on today and won’t blame Boris when the extension is requested. In short, exactly what I was hoping for when he was elected.
In other words he’s a ****?I understand why you feel the way you do, and he’s probably going to get Brexit over the line, but at what cost? Maybe he’s correct in his statement (whether he actually believes it is another matter) that the only way the nation can begin to heal is by firstly leaving, but he’s been the principal protagonist in a process which has driven a huge wedge in our society, caused in no small part by his MO (mendacity and confrontation) throughout. He has been the leading actor within something which will divide our nation for at least a generation, and has set the tone for that via his approach, turbo-fuelled by his ambition to the exclusion of all other considerations. I don’t believe that is something to be commended, and nor will it leave the UK a better place than he found it.
MPs have managed to thwart the government via political and legal means since the vote, they could have tried this when the details of the referendum was announced. The fact it was nonbinding but the government promised to enact the result whatever is why we are here, and surely that was legally challengeable. The politicians either missed it or didn't take enough care because they expected a different result. It is their problem to fix and they are still trying to solve it whereby they don't suffer.To be fair that wasn't really the MPs though, it was the PM and government at the time that made that decision. Bullish gambler that he is, got his high by not losing it all just earlier, and felt he had to go all in. He was also looking to please the nationalists in his own party, and beyond. I agree, i said at the time that was a mistake. Both as a principle (of union) and as a risk. Wouldnt be here now if he was more pragmatic, inclusive, and the nationalists in the other 3 nations wouldnt have a leg to stand on, as they would have been treated as genuine equals in the union. But as it is, the polar pull just continues.
I don’t think Labour MPs are voting with their conscience al all... well, hardly any of them anyway.. they under orders from Comrade Corbyn... they’d oppose anything the govt said.. even Remain I fear... the situation Is that bad.. a crying shame when you consider the wealth of knowledge we have, even in the commons..They passed sovereignty to the people for that day, Parliament took back sovereignty as soon as the polls closed. Direct democracy cannot be based on representative constituencies, that was obvious from the start of the whole process. A representative (MP) has freedom of conscience to act as seen fit, a referendum binds that conscience making the representative a delegate. It is inconsistent with our democratic process.
Some of the brightest, most erudite posters on here voted leave, only brainless idiots would class leavers as thick. Offense comes from lack of understanding. Its politics, it has become brutal. Read Julius Caesar.
No, we cant. It was always going to be a huge stumbling block, where does it end if we accept a border there? Do we have borders between remain and leave areas. Johnson didn't help here with his likening of Ireland to London boroughs
I am on record as saying I thought no deal was the only way to leave. Any deal ties the country to the EU.
MPs are doing there job, acting with their conscience in a situation where people are demanding they act as delegates. I don't blame MPs at all, because if they act as delegates it erodes the free thinking nature of our parliamentary democracy and hands more power to the executive. That is the road to despotism as MPs can no longer express freedom of conscience.
Rushing any bill through is anti-democratic imo, there are mechanisms that can be used to do it, but I hope we never see it on something so important.
Nobody could have read that whole document unless they had superpowers of reading, it was like war and peace.
If the Government had acted with propriety yes, but they have had to kow-tow to the likes of the ERG , as May found that is virtually impossible as they are zealots
It is embarrassing, this man is PM , he is making the country look fucking stupid
I totally support their right to protest, it is a democratic right. I don't have to support their cause to see that.
Disgusting behaviour, I am appalled Comrade. Punish yourself accordingly
Because Johnson is sly, arrogant and a narcissist. He believed in himself rather than the process
Before the referendum I posted repeatedly that holding a referendum was possibly the most stupid thing we could do. It was held for the wrong reasons, it was poorly legislated for and it all comes down to the arrogance of Cameron and Osborne. They expected an easy win and the good people of this country gave them a kicking as punishment for the years of needless austerity.
Yesterday was just the end of the beginning of this whole process, it is destroying the fabric of the nation, pitting friends against friends, blues against blues and family members against family members. The singular most corrosive act since the Corn Laws.
Disagree. I remember watching Question Time week after week waiting for someone to raise the point that the referendum should have the requirement of x% majority. Can't remember any politician bringing it up. Surely a politician should be considering the effect of every decision they make anyway.
I was saving that for later...In other words he’s a ****?
You could almost call it a surrender deal?Agreed. Referendum for constitutional change should always be required to command a super majority and it is usually tied to a percentage of the voting population not just those who voted. In our case requiring a majority for change in all four home nations was an obvious caveat given any change could have greater impact on one or more of the home nations than the others. We can see this in NI under the current proposal where the Govt has unilaterally agreed to impose an internal border within our own Union without reference to the people of NI and effectively at the behest of a foreign power.
So much for our ‘precious’ sovereignty and ‘Union’.
Of course it should, it should have been legislated for properly, it wasn't. That was in the hands of the executive. It was just a shit idea brought about by panic and arrogance.Disagree. I remember watching Question Time week after week waiting for someone to raise the point that the referendum should have the requirement of x% majority. Can't remember any politician bringing it up. Surely a politician should be considering the effect of every decision they make anyway.
He probably sat down and listened to the guys that ultimately delivered the result.This is an interesting point and one that bears thinking about.
So why did Johnson suddenly switch from a very pro EU stance to leadership of the leave campaign ?
The line normally trotted out is that he saw the opportunity to elevate himself into power but I'm not sure that bears scrutiny.
No one really gave leave much of a chance of winning when the referendum was called. It was an issue pursued by a vocal minority.
So who or what convinced Johnson to do a complete 180 degree turn on his views and why does he seem hellbent on as damaging a Brexit as possible.
It smacks of him running another persons agenda for me.
But why ? I hope we find out one day.
people seem to have lost sight of Parliament being the sovereign body in a democracy.
What on earth are you ashamed of?I’m absolutely ashamed of our parliament, ashamed