Another new Brexit thread

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Chippy_boy said:
Re your "we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border" comment, will you be happy when we have an FTA which provides this?

We have not failed to get it yet. Boris wants a deal and will do his utmost to get one, and provided he continues to have some teeth to his negotiating position, has a very good chance of getting it.
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I'd be delighted. If they'd meant it, there would have been no real campaign to stop Brexit.

If May had said "it was close so the best way to satisfy that result is to fulfil what the Leave campaign said and stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border" there would have been no Stop Brexit campaign.

Instead you'd have had the Tory party shouting "it's BRINO, law takers not law makers, etc" and on that stance the party would probably have chosen a different leader.

I'm amazed you think there is even a remote chance now of such a deal.
 
Vic said:
I'd be delighted. If they'd meant it, there would have been no real campaign to stop Brexit.

If May had said "it was close so the best way to satisfy that result is to fulfil what the Leave campaign said and stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border" there would have been no Stop Brexit campaign.

Instead you'd have had the Tory party shouting "it's BRINO, law takers not law makers, etc" and on that stance the party would probably have chosen a different leader.

I'm amazed you think there is even a remote chance now of such a deal.
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Not accepting BRINO does not necessarily rule out access to a free trade zone. Let's see what gets negotiated before condemning it as being rubbish.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Not accepting BRINO does not necessarily rule out access to a free trade zone. Let's see what gets negotiated before condemning it as being rubbish.
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It's just a simple fact. The "less aligned" we want to be (and that seems to be the Johnson line), the harder it will be to get a free trade deal (the more aligned, the less to negotiate).

1. We have a comprehensive free trade deal.
2. We want a worse deal.
3. We possibly still think any worse deal will be one where we negotiate member benefits without member obligations (including financial).
4. If we did end up with a FTZ from Iceland to the Russian border, it will still be the Tories to blame, for putting us through three years of unnecessary hell.
5. If they'd gone for it the day after the referendum, we'd now be preparing for next year's general election having left the EU (and the Tory party divisions still raw as the Withdrawal Act would have been opposed by the ERG and only passed with Labour support).

5 isn't a fact. 1-2 are. 3-4 are opinion. 5 is wishful thinking. They'll be writing dystopian novels about this 50 years from now. What if we'd not been consumed with this madness?

Anyway, getting ready for our soiree with two of our EU friends. So for today's test of empathy, what do you Leavers say to a EU citizen who wants to stay in the UK (job, married to a Brit) and might have taken citizenship but now really doesn't want to be a Brtish subject because of what the country has become? (Particularly to my citizen of the world friend whose family's escape from the Holocaust has seen him living in France, Colombia, Australia and France again before moving here to marry.)

Before you answer, imagine one of your children is happily working in the EU.
 
1. The referendum should never have been called.
2. Negotiations should not have been led by the "Brexit secretary", but by a reasonably impartial and respected figure. John Major maybe?
3. May should never have been PM. Cameron should have tagged either Johnson or Gove as his anointed successor, and said, effectively, "own this shit". Instead he gave Johnson 3 years to effectively snipe from the sidelines (even when in cabinet), prepare his pitch, and in the greatest con trick of all, convince enough people that he had nothing to do with the mess so far. In that, he actually played on his own incompetence as foreign secretary. Meanwhile the *relatively* sane Tories were all tarred by association with May, meaning that come her eventual resignation, they all went and we end up with our current cabinet of cranks, incompetents and crooks. Not so much season 10 of the Big Breakfast as the TV spin-off of "Lock, Stock...".

All of this could have been avoided if Cameron, on his way back to his Cotswold ham and cheese farm, had said "...and I strongly recommend Boris Johnson as the figure with the vision and the support to see this decision become reality".
 
Vic said:
It's just a simple fact. The "less aligned" we want to be (and that seems to be the Johnson line), the harder it will be to get a free trade deal (the more aligned, the less to negotiate).

1. We have a comprehensive free trade deal.
2. We want a worse deal.
3. We possibly still think any worse deal will be one where we negotiate member benefits without member obligations (including financial).
4. If we did end up with a FTZ from Iceland to the Russian border, it will still be the Tories to blame, for putting us through three years of unnecessary hell.
5. If they'd gone for it the day after the referendum, we'd now be preparing for next year's general election having left the EU (and the Tory party divisions still raw as the Withdrawal Act would have been opposed by the ERG and only passed with Labour support).

5 isn't a fact. 1-2 are. 3-4 are opinion. 5 is wishful thinking. They'll be writing dystopian novels about this 50 years from now. What if we'd not been consumed with this madness?

Anyway, getting ready for our soiree with two of our EU friends. So for today's test of empathy, what do you Leavers say to a EU citizen who wants to stay in the UK (job, married to a Brit) and might have taken citizenship but now really doesn't want to be a Brtish subject because of what the country has become? (Particularly to my citizen of the world friend whose family's escape from the Holocaust has seen him living in France, Colombia, Australia and France again before moving here to marry.)

Before you answer, imagine one of your children is happily working in the EU.
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Not sure you’re too well placed to pontificate about empathy, Vic.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Not sure you’re too well placed to pontificate about empathy, Vic.
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Empathy = literally feeling the suffering.
There are millions suffering at the least uncertainty and at the worst having their lives severely badly affected. Tell me who on the Leave side has suffered because of the EU and I'll see if I can feel some sympathy.

I know top of the list will be people who can't get a home or job or a doctor's appointment because of "immigration" when we all know it's immigrants building homes and doing jobs Brits won't do and keeping health services going.

No I have no empathy for people who have used crap arguments to get us into this mess.
 
Vic said:
Empathy = literally feeling the suffering.
There are millions suffering at the least uncertainty and at the worst having their lives severely badly affected. Tell me who on the Leave side has suffered because of the EU and I'll see if I can feel some sympathy.

I know top of the list will be people who can't get a home or job or a doctor's appointment because of "immigration" when we all know it's immigrants building homes and doing jobs Brits won't do and keeping health services going.

No I have no empathy for people who have used crap arguments to get us into this mess.
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Save your English language lecture for those who feel it will serve a useful purpose.

Feeling and understanding is more apposite, and better reflects the common use of the word - and empathy doesn’t have to just relate to suffering, but also others’ wants and needs more generally.

The fact that (once again) you’ve failed to consider the wants, needs and feelings of the 52% who voted to leave, and still wish to do so (give or take) only serves to accentuate my point; so thanks for that.
 
Seem to have a hybrid on this thread
An mcfcgdm , a new server might be needed to cope with the sermonising
 
Zuriblue said:
1. The referendum should never have been called.
2. Negotiations should not have been led by the "Brexit secretary", but by a reasonably impartial and respected figure. John Major maybe?
3. May should never have been PM. Cameron should have tagged either Johnson or Gove as his anointed successor, and said, effectively, "own this shit". Instead he gave Johnson 3 years to effectively snipe from the sidelines (even when in cabinet), prepare his pitch, and in the greatest con trick of all, convince enough people that he had nothing to do with the mess so far. In that, he actually played on his own incompetence as foreign secretary. Meanwhile the *relatively* sane Tories were all tarred by association with May, meaning that come her eventual resignation, they all went and we end up with our current cabinet of cranks, incompetents and crooks. Not so much season 10 of the Big Breakfast as the TV spin-off of "Lock, Stock...".

All of this could have been avoided if Cameron, on his way back to his Cotswold ham and cheese farm, had said "...and I strongly recommend Boris Johnson as the figure with the vision and the support to see this decision become reality".
Click to expand...

3. Cameron should have stayed in charge and owned this shit.
 
Vic said:
Empathy = literally feeling the suffering.
There are millions suffering at the least uncertainty and at the worst having their lives severely badly affected. Tell me who on the Leave side has suffered because of the EU and I'll see if I can feel some sympathy.

I know top of the list will be people who can't get a home or job or a doctor's appointment because of "immigration" when we all know it's immigrants building homes and doing jobs Brits won't do and keeping health services going.

No I have no empathy for people who have used crap arguments to get us into this mess.
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I think empathy is the ability to empathise with those who hold views other than your own - any **** can empathise with those that agree with them. That's not empathy, it's just agreement.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Due to their pitiful insecurities, some people are more bothered about saying ‘I told you so’, I’m afraid.
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It does sometimes appear that some almost want the post brexit apocalypse scenarios to come true in order to save face for themselves. Even if brexit is a success I'm sure that some will blame anything bad on Brexit and attribute anything good to being 'despite brexit ' for decades just so they can be 'right'. Probably the same folk that accuse brexiteers of being selfish /lying.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
It does sometimes appear that some almost want the post brexit apocalypse scenarios to come true in order to save face for themselves. Even if brexit is a success I'm sure that some will blame anything bad on Brexit and attribute anything good to being 'despite brexit ' for decades just so they can be 'right'. Probably the same folk that accuse brexiteers of being selfish /lying.
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Inevitably, there’s cunts on both side, mate.
 
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