Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

Yes you can legitimately blame the Remain campaign for being poor and not convincing enough people of the merits of remaining.

The people that are in no way to blame for any negative consequences are the members of the general public who voted remain.

"aLl LeAvE vOtErS aRe RaCiSts!"
"If YoU VoTeD lEaVe, YoU aRe A rAcIsT!"
"LeAvE vOtErS aRe UnEdUcAtEd!"
"FbPe! StOp BrExIt!"

You're pissed off that brexit is being overseen by a Conservative Government and not a Labour one. Remainers attitudes towards the opposing argument and its supporters are directly responsible for this being the current situation.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

All of this is a pre-referendum argument, you are arguing why Brexit shouldn't happen but the only fact on the table is it's happening.

The electorate has consistently voted for it in every question asked since 2016 so you're argument here is pointless and too late.

From 2016 to 2019, Brexit from a remain point of view should of been about mitigation but that argument was lost too.

So now in 2020 we are at implementation and that's the reality in front of us. Anything else is delusional, sorry.

You brought up Corbyn and suggested he was to blame for the referendum loss!

They aren't to blame for failing to address and satisfy the fears about federalism?
They aren't to blame for failing to promote the EU in a positive light besides "but...muh moneh"?
They aren't to blame for insulting the intelligence of the British Public at every turn?
They aren't to blame for insulting the integrity of the British Public by claiming a vote to leave was based on racism?
They aren't to blame for trying to frustrate the process of leaving in Parliament?
They aren't to blame for trying to delay the process of leaving in Parliament?
They aren't to blame for refusing to co-operate with the process of leaving in Parlaiment?
They aren't to blame for failing to put forward a convincing argument that leavers could appreciate about remaining?
They aren't to blame for failing to placate or even acknowledge leave voters concerns about the EU?
They aren't to blame for socially distancing themselves from the majority of the British Public by consistantly insulting leave voters, therefore giving the Conservatives a huge majority and being responsible for the direct divide we now have in British politics?

Remainers are not to blame for all the bollocks that leavers have held to be true. And remainers are not to blame for the fact Parliament could not pick which Donkey when the public had been promised a Unicorn. Johnson himself (king of the leaves) famously objected to one donkey on principle only to back the same donkey 3 votes later, he then went on to win an election promising another unicorn having agreed to a donkey himself with the EU. So why should remainers take the blame - we won't. If you are a leaver you need to accept you are to blame.

In fact all leavers should be in one of two camps now:

1 Brexit is great and there is no blame to be apportioned.
2 Brexit is (and will continue to be) shit and I blame [insert name/group of leavers here].

If your in 1 then then give it 12 months and you will be on your own, if your in 2 then I have some sympathy. You appear to be in 2 but you seem to think the people who warned you it will be shit are to blame.

 

[Metal Biker]

Corbyn was the most prominent remain supporter?!

I fail to see how remainers can take blame for something they didn't vote for. As far as I can see, any blame for this is at the feet of Leavers who have consistently failed to have a coherent leave position across the board, let alone one that could get the support of people who voted remain.

But you DID vote for it. You took part in the debate, the process and the vote.
We both took part in a binary choice and agreed that the winning vote would end the matter about debating membership of the EU.
Those who supported remaining did not respect or honour that choice. They lied.

Then they spent years opposing the decisionthe nation took as a whole, finding flawed excuses, hurling abuse and accusations towards their opponents on the issue and pushing their opponents further and further towards their political rivals who they now detest at being in charge of the whole process.

Remainers didn't vote to leave the EU; but you are all wholly responsible for pushing people who would never support the Tories into power by rejecting Labour and putting their vote elsewhere. You COULD have had a brexit being negotiated by Labour, but no, your actions and rhetoric put paid to that the moment you started attacking the character and integrity of leave voters, and now we've got a Tory majority, your nightmare, in charge of the whole process.

Proud?

 

[Metal Biker]

You brought up Corbyn and suggested he was to blame for the referendum loss!



Remainers are not to blame for all the bollocks that leavers have held to be true. And remainers are not to blame for the fact Parliament could not pick which Donkey when the public had been promised a Unicorn. Johnson himself (king of the leaves) famously objected to one donkey on principle only to back the same donkey 3 votes later, he then went on to win an election promising another unicorn having agreed to a donkey himself with the EU. So why should remainers take the blame - we won't. If you are a leaver you need to accept you are to blame.

In fact all leavers should be in one of two camps now:

1 Brexit is great and there is no blame to be apportioned.
2 Brexit is (and will continue to be) shit and I blame [insert name/group of leavers here].

If your in 1 then then give it 12 months and you will be on your own, if your in 2 then I have some sympathy. You appear to be in 2 but you seem to think the people who warned you it will be shit are to blame.

Actually there are many camps besides your pigeonholing suggestions.

1) Brexit is great, its going to be great and I stand by my decision!
2) Brexit is going to be fine, its not exactly what I wanted (*cough* EFTA) but I still stand by my decision!
3) Brexit is going to create new challenges for the country, but we'll need to meet them as this has been our choice and I still stand by my decision.
4) Brexit has been handled poorly, it is not going to deliver what I expected, but I will meet the challenges and am starting to regret my decision.
5) Brexit has been a disaster, it was clearly not going to deliver what I expected and I regret my decision.

I'm about 2)

Like I said though, what are you going to do about it? Your suggestion about being "on your own" means you advocate yet more division in the country. Yeah that worked out well for you guys in 2020 didn't it!

 

[inbetween]

Yes you can legitimately blame the Remain campaign for being poor and not convincing enough people of the merits of remaining.

The people that are in no way to blame for any negative consequences are the members of the general public who voted remain.

I think you are confusing remain voters and remainers.

I was a remain voter but I am not a remainer.

I would leave the EU if the circumstances and economic consequences were right but from my point of view they aren't.

Remain voters are not to blame but remainers in part are, they are because they failed to communicate and influence others to their argument. They also failed to come to the table and get something else that at least partially got them what they wanted.

I actually think the amount of remainers in the box with remain voters is quite small.

 

[west didsblue]

"aLl LeAvE vOtErS aRe RaCiSts!"
"If YoU VoTeD lEaVe, YoU aRe A rAcIsT!"
"LeAvE vOtErS aRe UnEdUcAtEd!"
"FbPe! StOp BrExIt!"

You're pissed off that brexit is being overseen by a Conservative Government and not a Labour one. Remainers attitudes towards the opposing argument and its supporters are directly responsible for this being the current situation.

Doing that rather odd alternating between capitals and lower case makes your posts practically unreadable.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Gosh I know this thread has had some bizarre arguments over the years but trying to have an argument about who is to BLAME for leaving the eu is a strange one.

surely those who voted leave wanted to leave the eu so are happy to take the blame for leaving the eu.

end of argument.

it’s what we wanted I thought.

 

[Metal Biker]

Doing that rather odd alternating between capitals and lower case makes your posts practically unreadable.

Lovely, and as to addressing the point raised?

(You struggle with the internet a lot, don't you.)

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Actually there are many camps besides your pigeonholing suggestions.

1) Brexit is great, its going to be great and I stand by my decision!
2) Brexit is going to be fine, its not exactly what I wanted but I still stand by my decision!
3) Brexit is going to create new challenges for the country, but we'll need to meet them as this has been our choice and I still stand by my decision.
4) Brexit has been handled poorly, it is not going to deliver what I expected, but I will meet the challenges and am starting to regret my decision.
5) Brexit has been a disaster, it was clearly not going to deliver what I expected and I regret my decision.

I'm about 2)

Like I said though, what are you going to do about it? Your suggestion about being "on your own" means you advocate yet more division in the country. Yeah that worked out well for you guys in 2020 didn't it!

Fair enough - however I would think anyone at least not in a 4 or 5 right now needs to diversify there sources of news / information. Give it 12 months and 90% of leavers will be in 4 or 5 despite the best efforts of our malign right wing press.

As for division - it will always be divisive, it was intended to be divisive - that is how shit house politicians operate. I will never think anything other than it was a bad decision driven by nefarious politicians who lied their way to a result that will help their careers at the expense of the country.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Gosh I know this thread has had some bizarre arguments over the years but trying to have an argument about who is to BLAME for leaving the eu is a strange one.

surely those who voted leave wanted to leave the eu so are happy to take the blame for leaving the eu.

end of argument.

it’s what we wanted I thought.

I will put you down as a 1. You can ignore any reference to blame as it doesn't apply to you yet.

 

[joe123]

But you DID vote for it. You took part in the debate, the process and the vote.
We both took part in a binary choice and agreed that the winning vote would end the matter about debating membership of the EU.
Those who supported remaining did not respect or honour that choice. They lied.

Then they spent years opposing the decisionthe nation took as a whole, finding flawed excuses, hurling abuse and accusations towards their opponents on the issue and pushing their opponents further and further towards their political rivals who they now detest at being in charge of the whole process.

Remainers didn't vote to leave the EU; but you are all wholly responsible for pushing people who would never support the Tories into power by rejecting Labour and putting their vote elsewhere. You COULD have had a brexit being negotiated by Labour, but no, your actions and rhetoric put paid to that the moment you started attacking the character and integrity of leave voters, and now we've got a Tory majority, your nightmare, in charge of the whole process.

Proud?

I/we really didn't vote for it. End of.

Had a form of leaving been put back to the people - EFTA, WTA etc - then fair enough. But we've had one definitive vote on it, and those that won that referendum still can't decide what winning looks like.

 

[Metal Biker]

Fair enough - however I would think anyone at least not in a 4 or 5 right now needs to diversify there sources of news / information. Give it 12 months and 90% of leavers will be in 4 or 5 despite the best efforts of our malign right wing press.

As for division - it will always be divisive, it was intended to be divisive - that is how shit house politicians operate. I will never think anything other than it was a bad decision driven by nefarious politicians who lied their way to a result that will help their careers at the expense of the country.

I'll make this simple;

If you asked me to join the EU as it stood in 1997, i'd have said "yes"
If you asked me to join the EU as it stood in 2008, i'd have said "no"
If you are asking me to join the EU as it stands NOW, in 2020? Absolutely fucking not.

I'm not against the EU, i'm not against the 'values' of the EU, i'm not even against the 'concept' of the EU, i'm against what it wants, where it's heading, its abuse of power, its abuse of its citizens and its authoritarian mindset that it is developing. You can't see that or have no problem with it. Fine, bt many do, and we shouldn't be disregarded because of our difference of opinion. We were asked if we still supported it, many of us said no, and we've taken action.

 

[Metal Biker]

I/we really didn't vote for it. End of.

Had a form of leaving been put back to the people - EFTA, WTA etc - then fair enough. But we've had one definitive vote on it, and those that won that referendum still can't decide what winning looks like.

But we DID decide what the form of leaving would look like, didn't we, after two elections and years of bickering, and remainers were responsible for pushing us in that direction by being abusive, accusatory, insulting and denigrating towards those who voted to leave and the Conservatives being the only party that appeared to support the decision taken by the voting public.

We would have likely had an EFTA style brexit had remainers gotten behind the concept, backed Labour to promote it and gotten people on board. Alas, remainers had a different angle they wanted to play, didn't they.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

But we DID decide what the form of leaving would look like, didn't we, after two elections and years of bickering, and remainers were responsible for pushing us in that direction by being abusive, accusatory, insulting and denigrating towards those who voted to leave and the Conservatives being the only party that appeared to support the decision taken by the voting public.

We would have likely had an EFTA style brexit had remainers gotten behind the concept, backed Labour to promote it and gotten people on board. Alas, remainers had a different angle they wanted to play, didn't they.

Blaming remainers again - I thought we had established that you were broadly happy and didn't regret your vote. Do we need to bump you up to a 3 (close to a 4)?

 

[Metal Biker]

Blaming remainers again - I thought we had established that you were broadly happy and didn't regret your vote. Do we need to bump you up to a 3 (close to a 4)?

You're the one desperate to blame all leavers for the decisions made by this Government.

We were asked to vote on a decision, we did, and the result was announced. That is as far as our involvement in the process went. Unless you are admitting that voters actions after the vote are also to be held responsible, in which case we can blame remainers in the same light as you wish to do. But that doesn't get us anywhere.

And no, i'm firmly a 2 on my scale. I don't regret my decision one iota. People already know what my preferred outcome would have been; doesn't mean i'm dissatisfied right now, either.

 

[Vic]

Doing that rather odd alternating between capitals and lower case makes your posts practically unreadable.

They're unreadable anyway. I mean, I don't read them. Although:

 

[Vic]

...

We would have likely had an EFTA style brexit had remainers gotten behind the concept, backed Labour to promote it and gotten people on board. Alas, remainers had a different angle they wanted to play, didn't they.

The word EFTA leapt out, the only realistic way to fulfil the Leave lie that "We would still be in a FTZ from Iceland to the Russian border".

Had Remainers got behind it, you say?

That was easy: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...kl6E4zGyQDSkeVQr7hIeLMlrAKLvWdL04DDckjyNbjMIw

Sounds a lot like Farage before the referendum, "We could be like Norway".

 

[mackenzie]

Makes me question why Leavers want to put Remainers at the forefront of responsibility when it comes to Brexit. After all, it's very gracious of them to be prepared to share the credit when a glorious Brexit happens.
However, perhaps it's actually because they fear an unmitigated disaster.
There is no way this upcoming shit show is any shape or form MY responsibility, so there is no need to include me in it.
Thanks all the same.

 

[Vic]

yeah we are leaving it is fixed.

those who wanted to leave are to blame for leaving you have changed it to.

what the fuck are you on about that’s what we voted for you numpty.

So you are taking the blame?

 

[Metal Biker]

Makes me question why Leavers want to put Remainers at the forefront of responsibility when it comes to Brexit. After all, it's very gracious of them to be prepared to share the credit when a glorious Brexit happens.
However, perhaps it's actually because they fear an unmitigated disaster.
There is no way this upcoming shit show is any shape or form MY responsibility, so there is no need to include me in it.
Thanks all the same.

We don't. We haven't been the ones starting the "blame" shit.

They're the ones trying to put leavers at the forefront, so we're just highlighting a few home truths and lo and behold, they don't like it.

Maybe both sides should stop with the whole "who's to blame" rhetoric?