Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Also worth reminding people that many people voted as I did - for the Labour Party - on the basis that in a future referendum if Labour won I would still vote leave.

Its feintly ridiculous to believe that every Labour voter was a remainder at heart, and equally daft to believe that every tory voter was a leaver at heart.

Leave v remain was not then, isn't now, and never ever will be, a left v right argument. The greatest lie remain ever told was that you can only be a true Labour voter if you want to remain.

The greatest PM we never had, Tony Benn, would spin in his grave at the way this lie has been allowed to flourish.

Saint Tony would have put the UK's interests above his then concerns about the undemocratic processes of the EU. It's another Leaver trope - the EU is undemocratic but the idea of giving more power to the elected EU parliament is decried as a step toward a superstate.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’m more open minded about this than you might like to think and if there is a demonstrable benefit I’m happy to hear it. So far we’ve spent a lot making the case for and preparing for Brexit but once the ledger moves back into profit I’m sure it will all seem worthwhile.

Well done for the false accusation of EU sycophancy, not taking your cue from anyone in particular there are you?

The 'benefits' have been voiced and explained many times on here. You should know what they are by now.

In case you'd forgotten, the short version is no longer paying into the EU budget, end to EU bureaucracy, disassociation from the 'EU Project', better/closer relationships with the wider world than focusing on a centralised bloc dominated by the same two members.

If you don't see them as benefits, then you never will, and the two mindsets will never agree on it. The difference being is that i'm not criticising others decision to want to stay in the EU.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yet, you do. Every time. Like a moth to a flame, and with the same inevitable consequences.

Nope - you are clearly wrong there Bob - I have been clear that I only respond to his posts to point out inaccuracies - or in this case seeming falsehoods

And interestingly - having read your post these last few days - you seem to be on a roll

I am sure that you have not always been so far off the mark as these last couple of days - perhaps you are just getting a bit rattled

Anyway - back to this post - how come you are not picking up the poster on the falsehoods? would not that be more appropriate?

 

[hilts]

Nobody’s vote has been nobbled. We voted out and we’ve left.

That we aren’t getting what many leave voters voted for, in terms of still being in a large FTZ and £350m extra for the NHS from subscription savings is on the mugs that believed that shite and voted for it on that basis.

For those that voted Leave on the basis that it would risk the breakup of the UK and would make us poorer and marginalised on the world stage, well you got exactly what you voted for.

I never said anyone’s vote had currently so didn’t read the rest, it’s a thing I have about starting a post with an untruth.

 

[Metal Biker]

Everything is now seen as the rightous left Vs the evil right unfortunately.

Still it given them the opportunity to slag Trump and his cronies off for wanting to ignore democracy on one thread whilst spending the last 4 years behaving the exact same way as him and them on another.

Meanwhile.the vast majority of us go about our daily lives not giving a fuck what either of the two sides think or want.

Couple that with the fact that the line between left/right has shifted so much that 'liberals' and 'centrists' are now considered far-right/far-left (or "the enemy") by those who manufactured these imaginary divisions, that a certain level of political apathy has descended on the majority of decent people, to such an extent that even genuinely concerning issues are being mostly disregarded because people have had enough of engaging on political topics.

Everything poltical has become toxic, closed, and people just retreat into their bubbles. Before when people debated, you'd argue, it'd get heated but you went on your way. People are now actively trying to get people arrested or have them lose their jobs due to a heated debate. Why would anyone want to get involved in political debates in this current environment?

 

[journolud]

The 'benefits' have been voiced and explained many times on here. You should know what they are by now.

In case you'd forgotten, the short version is no longer paying into the EU budget, end to EU bureaucracy, disassociation from the 'EU Project', better/closer relationships with the wider world than focusing on a centralised bloc dominated by the same two members.

If you don't see them as benefits, then you never will, and the two mindsets will never agree on it. The difference being is that i'm not criticising others decision to want to stay in the EU.

Yes I’m aware these were trumpeted as benefits of leave but there are counter arguments to them. We certainly seem to be replacing EE bureaucracy with some new of our own. You’re right we’re not going to agree. I have no strong feelings about the EU project but I do want to see an economic benefit of leaving and the evidence doesn’t point towards it just yet.

Very magnanimous of you apparently not criticising others decisions to want to stay but pretty much at odds with your triumphalism and gloating a few posts up

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes I’m aware these were trumpeted as benefits of leave but there are counter arguments to them. We certainly seem to be replacing EE bureaucracy with some new of our own. You’re right we’re not going to agree. I have no strong feelings about the EU project but I do want to see an economic benefit of leaving and the evidence doesn’t point towards it just yet.

Very magnanimous of you apparently not criticising others decisions to want to stay but pretty much at odds with your triumphalism and gloating a few posts up

No, they aren't "counter-arguments", they are differences of opinion.

This is where you keep going wrong. Do you support paying into an EU budget? If it's yes, then in your opinion the EU budget is a good thing. If it's no, you generally believe the EU budget is an unnecessary waste of taxpayers money.

It's not triumphalism or gloating by the way. That's your interpretation.

 

[mcfc1632]

Ever thought they make those comments because you make posts like that?

Chicken and egg?

Why do you seem to not ever think that I make the comments that I make because of the years and hundreds of generally ill-informed posts that seek to close down Leave opinions and also the many snide posts that are aimed directly at me - I have responded to another such gratuitous one today

I am absolutely clear that I spent quite a lot of effort seeking to engage in genuine debate before recognising it was a waste of effort due to the behaviour of some members - and therefore adopted a different, more appropriate, style.

Sorry - I am pretty tired of repeating that I will look to seeing evidence of you picking up people from the Remain side for their pettiness and outright snide behaviour before I embrace your lectures - but you seem an OK bloke - so I make the effort again.

That seems a fair position from my POV

 

[west didsblue]

I never said anyone’s vote had currently so didn’t read the rest, it’s a thing I have about starting a post with an untruth.

Probably for the best.

It’s unlikely you would have understood based on your interpretation of the first sentence.

 

[mcfc1632]

..............If you so desire to live in the EU, I can only suggest moving to an EU member state as it'll be decades before such a situation arises in the UK again.

Really hope that you are right

We absolutely need to get clear of the EU now - no extensions and have a few years to put distance between us before the next election.

At least the situation is so much better than Leavers could have thought would be possibly the case in 2017-2019

 

[BobKowalski]

I genuinely have never seen 'Terminator'.

Does it feature a monster with a psychosis based in uncontrolled narcissism inflated arrogance and a perceived need to subjugate and/or ridicule other individuals deemed to be inferior or unworthy?

If it does, I really can't see any link to @mcfc1632

Yes. Skynet. But instead of ridicule it nukes them. You have no idea of the monster you are creating.

 

[mcfc1632]

The British public didn't.

"we'll negotiate a deal with the EU, and then once we achieved an agreement, put that deal back to the British public, where they can vote on leaving the EU by accepting the deal, or remaining in the EU"

"And what position would Labour take?"

"We'd support remaining in the EU"

"So you'd effectively campaign against your OWN deal that you agreed?"

"...."

And then you have to question the statement:

"we'll negotiate a deal with the EU, and then once we achieved an agreement,......"

What type of deal would the EU likely offer the UK against that backdrop

Call me a cynic - but I suspect that it might be one that the UK public would reject???

Why do Remainers not ever ask themselves why the EU are so keen for the UK to be either in the EU or tied to the EU - some answers are in that article i posted earlier.

 

[jaseirai]

For those that can spend a few mins and deploy objectivity - I think that this offers a fairly good description of how things have operated and are reshaping now in the light of Covid and Brexit:

‘More Europe’ after Brexit | National Review

It brings out the accuracy of the German and French past controls and the current dynamics - and the previous role - always eventually futile - of the UK. It comments well on the emerging tensions between France and Germany

It provides helpful explanation of how the other 'contributors' are forced to reluctantly tag along. It is easy to understand why the debtors follow the lines - and also explains the exceptions e.g. Poland and Hungary. Surely, one has to feel massive sympathy for Holland, Sweden, Denmark and Austria?

Importantly also, there is fleeting reference to one of the key reasons that the UK, for its long-tern prosperity, absolutely must leave the EU and will benefit from a clean Brexit - I wonder how many of the die-hards would be able to swallow and accept the obvious truth. In this regard - for those willing to analyse - it becomes quite obvious what Macron's range of views are towards the terms the UK should leave on and also Merkel's - along with Holland, Sweden, Denmark and Austria - total preference for the UK to remain.

And for the couple of posters that bang on about opt-outs and vetoes there is some obvious explanation of why they will not be even a medium-term protection

There are also a couple of other gems to be considered as a result of what can be discerned for those with objectivity - which I will come back to rather than make this a longer post. It will be curious (well at least to me) to see the level of genuine analysis

I didn't know Mutti vetoed Greece moving back to the drachma (which may well prove costly). I'm not sure if she was in charge when the decision was made to start using target2 to bail out southern Europe; if she was, it's looking like a pattern.

I wonder if German tax payers realise the Bundesbank is effectively insolvent, because when they do, they'll have to decide whether they want their Hamiltonian moment.

It sounds like it's all part of the plan.

 

[Metal Biker]

And then you have to question the statement:

"we'll negotiate a deal with the EU, and then once we achieved an agreement,......"

What type of deal would the EU likely offer the UK against that backdrop

Call me a cynic - but I suspect that it might be one that the UK public would reject???

Why do Remainers not ever ask themselves why the EU are so keen for the UK to be either in the EU or tied to the EU - some answers are in that article i posted earlier.

That's how most opponents saw it.

What sort of deal would Labour have negotiated? An intentionally terrible one that offered leave supporters no concessions whatsoever? We'd have been between a rock and a hard place allowing *this* Labour Govt to negotiate on our behalf.

Labour's offer of "we'll get a deal, then actively tell you to reject it" didn't exactly inspire confidence in the public, and that showed last year. One of the most disastrous political messages I can think of.

 

[journolud]

No, they aren't "counter-arguments", they are differences of opinion.

This is where you keep going wrong. Do you support paying into an EU budget? If it's yes, then in your opinion the EU budget is a good thing. If it's no, you generally believe the EU budget is an unnecessary waste of taxpayers money.

It's not triumphalism or gloating by the way. That's your interpretation.

You’re being very patronising, least ways that’s my interpretation. I’ve no problem paying into an EU budget if I think there are economic benefits to doing so and it seems there are. I have to be convinced that the money we “save” will be better invested elsewhere and that the returns we get on it will be better than the returns we got as being members of the club

 

[mcfc1632]

.............If historically remainers had been more concerned about democracy none of this would have happened.............., will lessons be learnt? Nah just more moaning and tears I’m afraid. The future is going to be very messy.

Just think that if they could of brought themselves to just accept a fully fledged BRINO in 2017, 2018 or 2019 - then we would be essentially still in the EU and not facing the 'risk' of a genuine Brexit

Lesson learned??

Perhaps the lesson is that they should not have wanted to have their cake - and eat it?

 

[Metal Biker]

You’re being very patronising, least ways that’s my interpretation. I’ve no problem paying into an EU budget if I think there are economic benefits to doing so and it seems there are. I have to be convinced that the money we “save” will be better invested elsewhere and that the returns we get on it will be better than the returns we got as being members of the club

As I said, that's your interpretation, its not my intention. I'd love to read some examples of how you think i'm being patronising, but if you read my responses in that sort of tone, you'll think I am being when i'm not.

Your argument about money isn't my interest regarding the EU and never has been. I couldn't care less if a BMW or Mercedez costs people a few thousand pounds more, or holidays to Vienna might go up a little. What I do care about are civil liberties, ending unnecesary limiting bureaucracy, ending exploitation of workers for cheap labour profits, the concept of "Europeanism" flags, anthems and 'identity', restoring faith in our political systems which directly affect the British electorate, halting the charge for a federal European political power, reducing the influence and scale of the European Parliament and MEP's over it's members own political will and their national elected governments and Parliaments, cancelling the EU budget and the EU Project.

Had it stayed true to the aims of the EEC or been more like the EFTA i'd have had no issues about being a member whatsoever. But it didn't and it was clearly going to get worse and more controlling the longer we were a member, up until the point it became impossible to leave the bloc, and we would have been complicit in the EU's future actions.

 

[journolud]

As I said, that's your interpretation, its not my intention. I'd love to read some examples of how you think i'm being patronising, but if you read my responses in that sort of tone, you'll think I am being when i'm not.

Your argument about money isn't my interest regarding the EU and never has been. I couldn't care less if a BMW or Mercedez costs people a few thousand pounds more, or holidays to Vienna might go up a little. What I do care about are civil liberties, ending unnecesary limiting bureaucracy, ending exploitation of workers for cheap labour profits, the concept of "Europeanism" flags, anthems and 'identity', restoring faith in our political systems which directly affect the British electorate, halting the charge for a federal European political power, reducing the influence and scale of the European Parliament and MEP's over it's members own political will and their national elected governments and Parliaments, cancelling the EU budget and the EU Project.

Had it stayed true to the aims of the EEC or been more like the EFTA i'd have had no issues about being a member whatsoever. But it didn't and it was clearly going to get worse and more controlling the longer we were a member, up until the point it became impossible to leave the bloc, and we would have been complicit in the EU's future actions.

Yeah fair enough you have consistently made the point about federalism and if you are ok for us to take an economic hit in order to “free” ourselves then fair enough. For my part my concern about the economic impact isn’t about potential price increases for luxury cars, although I will be miffed if the price of my weekly shop goes up too much or certain items are in short supply.

The potential economic fallout might be more of a concern to anyone who finds their jobs at risk though

 

[meltonblue]

Just think that if they could of brought themselves to just accept a fully fledged BRINO in 2017, 2018 or 2019 - then we would be essentially still in the EU and not facing the 'risk' of a genuine Brexit

Lesson learned??

Perhaps the lesson is that they should not have wanted to have their cake - and eat it?

Whilst I agree with this point, who is the they you’re talking about there? As those decisions were made by parliament and turned down by both supporters of remain and leave.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yeah fair enough you have consistently made the point about federalism and if you are ok for us to take an economic hit in order to “free” ourselves then fair enough. For my part my concern about the economic impact isn’t about potential price increases for luxury cars, although I will be miffed if the price of my weekly shop goes up too much or certain items are in short supply.

The potential economic fallout might be more of a concern to anyone who finds their jobs at risk though

COVID-19 has changed the game considerably about how everyone will live our lives from this point, going forward.

Couple that with the efforts against climate change and I do feel that the era of opulence in coming to an end and we'll all need to start appreciating what we have instead of demanding or expecting more. Yes some will say brexit is to blame, and there will be others will say it has nothing to do with brexit.

Brexit is a done issue, one that belongs in the past. The focus now is dealing with much, much more pressing concerns such as green energies, reduction of waste, climate change issues, and coping with the coronavirus to eventually see an end to this pandemic. I just feel people need to realise that the UK rejoining the EU won't resolve anything, not anymore.