Another new Brexit thread

[Kazzydeyna]

Saint Tony would have put the UK's interests above his then concerns about the undemocratic processes of the EU. It's another Leaver trope - the EU is undemocratic but the idea of giving more power to the elected EU parliament is decried as a step toward a superstate.

You very clearly know next to nothing about Tony Benn, that's obvious as the suggestion that Tony would have been in favour of the Thatcher designed modern day EU is laughable. That's not a problem, patriotic left wing politicians aren't everyone's cup of tea.
Michael Foot was also anti-eu. as was Peter Shore and indeed a plethora of British socialists. As they are now. It is impossible to be a socialist AND a remainer.

Its the liberals that are pro EU, and as anyone with any modicum of intelligence already knows liberals and socialists are very very different political animals.

 

[journolud]

COVID-19 has changed the game considerably about how everyone will live our lives from this point, going forward.

Couple that with the efforts against climate change and I do feel that the era of opulence in coming to an end and we'll all need to start appreciating what we have instead of demanding or expecting more. Yes some will say brexit is to blame, and there will be others will say it has nothing to do with brexit.

Brexit is a done issue, one that belongs in the past. The focus now is dealing with much, much more pressing concerns such as green energies, reduction of waste, climate change issues, and coping with the coronavirus to eventually see an end to this pandemic. I just feel people need to realise that the UK rejoining the EU won't resolve anything, not anymore.

I actually agree with you about all the other issues. It’s a bit of a red herring though to mention rejoining the EU, I don’t see any great movement for that. Doesn’t mean we are necessarily going to regret leaving any less. Brexit is only a done issue in so much as there is no going back but it is hardly done when we still haven’t agreed a deal and British businesses don’t know on what basis they will be trading in a few weeks time.

 

[bluethrunthru]

FT reporting that Johnson is preparing to remove the controversial elements of the Internal Markets Bill in order to get a deal.

 

[Vic]

The 'benefits' have been voiced and explained many times on here. You should know what they are by now.

In case you'd forgotten, the short version is no longer paying into the EU budget, end to EU bureaucracy, disassociation from the 'EU Project', better/closer relationships with the wider world than focusing on a centralised bloc dominated by the same two members.

If you don't see them as benefits, then you never will, and the two mindsets will never agree on it. The difference being is that i'm not criticising others decision to want to stay in the EU.

Is that it?

Way more costs than our contributions, more bureaucracy (more new customs officers and other red tape officials than the entire EU staff), a wider world that the EU never stopped us dealing with while leaving loses us free trade with much of that wider world.

And you seriously wonder why we criticise this crap. And you wanted us to stay in the bloc via the EEA.

 

[Vic]

....

Meanwhile.the vast majority of us go about our daily lives not giving a fuck what either of the two sides think or want.

So why are you here?

 

[Vic]

Couple that with the fact that the line between left/right has shifted so much that 'liberals' and 'centrists' are now considered far-right/far-left (or "the enemy") by those who manufactured these imaginary divisions, that a certain level of political apathy has descended on the majority of decent people, to such an extent that even genuinely concerning issues are being mostly disregarded because people have had enough of engaging on political topics.

Everything poltical has become toxic, closed, and people just retreat into their bubbles. Before when people debated, you'd argue, it'd get heated but you went on your way. People are now actively trying to get people arrested or have them lose their jobs due to a heated debate. Why would anyone want to get involved in political debates in this current environment?

Brexit has certainly helped with those divisions. And caused a lot more.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You very clearly know next to nothing about Tony Benn, that's obvious as the suggestion that Tony would have been in favour of the Thatcher designed modern day EU is laughable. That's not a problem, patriotic left wing politicians aren't everyone's cup of tea.
Michael Foot was also anti-eu. as was Peter Shore and indeed a plethora of British socialists. As they are now. It is impossible to be a socialist AND a remainer.

Its the liberals that are pro EU, and as anyone with any modicum of intelligence already knows liberals and socialists are very very different political animals.

It's either genuinely beyond some people or they are so genuinely ignorant of the historical opposition from the left to the EEC / EU that there is no point in you trying. The truth is its an issue that divides the left as much as the right, but it's easier for some people (including some politicians) if they can break every issue down to a basic left v right argument. If that were the case the EU issue would not have been so toxic.

 

[blueinsa]

So why are you here?

Because I want to be, have been here since 2008 and more than occasionally actually discuss our football club.

 

[Vic]

And then you have to question the statement:

"we'll negotiate a deal with the EU, and then once we achieved an agreement,......"

What type of deal would the EU likely offer the UK against that backdrop

Call me a cynic - but I suspect that it might be one that the UK public would reject???

Wasn't that once Johnson's idea? Vote no and that would make the EU offer us better terms on top of all the rebates and opt outs, and we would then vote Remain in a second referendum? (Actually I think he may have meant we'd just Remain without a second referendum.)

 

[Vic]

Just think that if they could of brought themselves to just accept a fully fledged BRINO in 2017, 2018 or 2019 - then we would be essentially still in the EU and not facing the 'risk' of a genuine Brexit

Lesson learned??

Perhaps the lesson is that they should not have wanted to have their cake - and eat it?

When was BRINO ever on offer?

I must have missed that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Is that it?

Way more costs than our contributions, more bureaucracy (more new customs officers and other red tape officials than the entire EU staff), a wider world that the EU never stopped us dealing with while leaving loses us free trade with much of that wider world.

And you seriously wonder why we criticise this crap. And you wanted us to stay in the bloc via the EEA.

Disassociation from the EU project is the one that actually stands up to some argument if you believe that the EU is moving inexorably towards greater political and fiscal union (and lets face it it is), and you are passionately against that. Furthermore if you believe that economically at some point the EU will fail because the richer nations will get tired of subsidising the med countries. I do get that and would hold it up as a valid reason to support Brexit. The other reasons @Mëtal Bikër lists I do struggle with.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

When was BRINO ever on offer?

I must have missed that.

Theresa May's attempt to please everyone that ended up pleasing no one could be described as such. If that had have got through it would certainly have ensured a deal and brexit - albeit brino as a compromise. I suppose some now realise that by obstructing that in an attempt to go 'double or quits' and leverage a revoke/remain they lost the opportunity for compromise.

 

[Vic]

You very clearly know next to nothing about Tony Benn, that's obvious as the suggestion that Tony would have been in favour of the Thatcher designed modern day EU is laughable. That's not a problem, patriotic left wing politicians aren't everyone's cup of tea.
Michael Foot was also anti-eu. as was Peter Shore and indeed a plethora of British socialists. As they are now. It is impossible to be a socialist AND a remainer.

Its the liberals that are pro EU, and as anyone with any modicum of intelligence already knows liberals and socialists are very very different political animals.

Utter cobblers. 75% of momentum members (post referendum) were for a second referendum (and remaining) and I suppose none of the EU socialist parties are in favour of being in the EU. Thatcher called the Social Chapter a socialist charter, and we are now opting out of that important bit of internationalism. Workers' rights are under threat. The EU has policies to address the precarariat, the UK will embrace the "flexible" labour market (yet another "benefit" for the right wing promoters of Brexit.

Did you ever meet Benn?

 

[jaseirai]

FT reporting that Johnson is preparing to remove the controversial elements of the Internal Markets Bill in order to get a deal.

I must’ve missed that. Where on the FT exactly?

 

[Vic]

Because I want to be, have been here since 2008 and more than occasionally actually discuss our football club.

On this thread, as I suspect you knew.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I must’ve missed that. Where on the FT exactly?

C4 News earlier said the FT were reporting a number 10 aide was telling them

 

[Vic]

Theresa May's attempt to please everyone that ended up pleasing no one could be described as such. If that had have got through it would certainly have ensured a deal and brexit - albeit brino as a compromise. I suppose some now realise that by obstructing that in an attempt to go 'double or quits' and leverage a revoke/remain they lost the opportunity for compromise.

Brino must have at least meant we stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. It was promised in the Leave lies but when was it ever on offer after the vote?

Every Remainer I know would readily have accepted it as the least damaging way to fulfil a narrow Leave vote based on lies.

I'm not sure whether "Brino was on offer" is just more wumming or actual gaslighting.

 

[BobKowalski]

Theresa May's attempt to please everyone that ended up pleasing no one could be described as such. If that had have got through it would certainly have ensured a deal and brexit - albeit brino as a compromise. I suppose some now realise that by obstructing that in an attempt to go 'double or quits' and leverage a revoke/remain they lost the opportunity for compromise.

The May WA deal is the Johnson WA deal, save for NI which Johnson sold down the river. Once May announced no Single Market, no Customs Union, and pro-Europeans where ‘citizens of no where’ we took the hint and went with fighting it all the way and causing as much difficulty as possible because the alternative on offer was hard Brexit or very hard Brexit.

May set up the situation where no attempt was made to bridge the gap between the two sides, or indeed between England and Scotland/NI and four years later, here we are. Nothing as promised in the referendum and the prospect of damaged relations with European countries for years to come, not to mention strained relations in our own union.

Great job all round.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Brino must have at least meant we stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. It was promised in the Leave lies but when was it ever on offer after the vote?

Every Remainer I know would readily have accepted it as the least damaging way to fulfil a narrow Leave vote based on lies.

I'm not sure whether "Brino was on offer" is just more wumming or actual gaslighting.

How else would you characterise mays deal?

 

[BobKowalski]

Brino must have at least meant we stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. It was promised in the Leave lies but when was it ever on offer after the vote?

Every Remainer I know would readily have accepted it as the least damaging way to fulfil a narrow Leave vote based on lies.

I'm not sure whether "Brino was on offer" is just more wumming or actual gaslighting.

It‘s an attempt to shift blame. Fuck then and the horse they rode in on.