Another new Brexit thread

[mat]

Brexit was never a grassroots movement, but an elitist political takeover | Aditya Chakrabortty

The 2016 referendum was won by rightwing millionaires using the poor and ignored as political cover, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty

amp.theguardian.com

Tend to agree with this article that Brexit is more of a rich man's power grab than an actual benefit to the country as a whole.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Independent arbitration would get it over the line ( at least for now).

Agreed, if independent they be.

Fish could be kicked into the long grass ( or deep water).
Where there's a will there's a way.
B

If they accept the fact that it will be the UK which dictates the governance of its waters, I'm sure the UK will be very obliging in handing out the relevant licences.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Sounds great, lucky, N. Ireland. Pity it isn't open to other parts of the UK to opt for.

So, is this a good result for NI?

 

[BobKowalski]

I find it very difficult to understand why they should have rights to govern our State aid, fishing or subject us to the ECJ once we are not in the EU. I can see that there may be a trade off in terms of giving a bit on one or all those things to get a bit of what we want in terms of frictionless trade / market access which of course we are not entitled to as a non EU state, but the reality that we are no longer an EU member does rather seem to be getting lost.

There is no right. It’s a commercial transaction. We want a high level of access to the Single Market given our proximity and amount of trade. The EU will grant this access, but only on the condition we sign up to a high level of alignment with European standards on labour, environment and state aid, thereby protecting the Single Market and their domestic industries from ‘social dumping’.

If we don’t want to sign up then we don’t get the level of access we need. Each party is sovereign and is able to choose whatever conditions or provisions it likes. The EU isn’t going to drop their provisions, when you have Merkel saying no deal is a better long term option then they ain’t getting dropped. If Johnson says our position cannot be changed then it will be no deal, hard customs border, tariffs and minimal cooperation. It will also means fraught diplomatic relations between UK and the rest of Europe, although we have zero credit left in the diplomatic bank anyway given the recent attempt at reneging on the WA, a move that has resulted in Macron and Merkel not even talking to Johnson directly.

 

[west didsblue]

The answer is available, I'm checking, as yet I've not come across any offering
free access. So that being the case, it's not exactly unreasonable for us us to be in agreement with those who don't allow it.

Your original point was about ceding territory not access to fishing grounds in a country's EEZ. I don't care about fishing but I find it bizarre that we have ceded partial control of some of our territory (NI) to the EU under the banner of taking back control.

 

[mat]

Hadn't you heard. The new target (now its not EU, immigrants....) is......Scotland.
Brexit is the Scots fault, selfish bastards.

The EU
Corbyn
Sturgeon
The French
Remoaners

All been blamed for the lack of ownership of the issue. They are now running out of people/organisation to use to disguise their own lack of preparation.

 

[BobKowalski]

Agreed, if independent they be.

If they accept the fact that it will be the UK which dictates the governance of its waters, I'm sure the UK will be very obliging in handing out the relevant licences.

That‘s the thing. They do. It’s a legal point so the EU has no choice on the issue. What the EU want is guaranteed access for a set number of years, which is then renegotiated. The fact that the EU has to negotiate this point at all is acceptance of the legal position, otherwise they would just say the waters are not yours, so tough.

 

[west didsblue]

The EU
Corbyn
Sturgeon
The French
Remoaners

All been blamed for the lack of ownership of the issue. They are now running out of people/organisation to use to disguise their own lack of preparation.

You missed out business. They were supposed to second guess the outcome and be prepared.

 

[Vic]

Just opinion.

ECJ - an imperial, not an impartial, court

The proposed withdrawal agreement would subject the UK to a court which can never be an impartial arbiter in legal disputes involving the EU's own interests.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

I think that in his concluding paragraph he is complaining that the ECJ is biased because it ruled that the UK had a sovereign right to revoke Article 50. Not that we had to, but that it was our sovereign right to do so. So a decision saying that an EU member could change its mind about leaving was a bad thing? It supported our sovereignty!

 

[Saddleworth2]

The EU
Corbyn
Sturgeon
The French
Remoaners

All been blamed for the lack of ownership of the issue. They are now running out of people/organisation to use to disguise their own lack of preparation.

The Scots are a gift that will continue to keep giving ;-)

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Good point, and neither do I, but when we're the only country in the world to
be asked to cede territory and abide by foreign rules in order to trade, then
I can sort of understand it.

Ahem! Hello!

 

[BobKowalski]

Ahem! Hello!

We’re English. You don’t count, mate :)

 

[blueparrot]

So, is this a good result for NI?

Good result, no. Better than the rest of the UK is getting,I'd say so, put it this way, I think if Scotland was offered what N.Ireland has, a foot in the UK and EU markets, they''d jump at it over what we are getting. I know some in N.Ireland might not like it, but its's been imposed on you anyway many in Scotland and I'd guess Wales and other regions of England would prefer it to the no deal/ shit deal scenario, but we aren't allowed it. Still one UK eh ?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

So, is this a good result for NI?

Ulster says NO.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

We’re English. You don’t count, mate :)

I think you’ll find we ceded first.
But I won’t go on about it.

 

[jaseirai]

I think that in his concluding paragraph he is complaining that the ECJ is biased because it ruled that the UK had a sovereign right to revoke Article 50. Not that we had to, but that it was our sovereign right to do so. So a decision saying that an EU member could change its mind about leaving was a bad thing? It supported our sovereignty!

Stopped reading at I think...

 

[BobKowalski]

Danish PM on Brexit, Denmark is one of our main allies in EU power play politics.

‘Mette Frederiksen underlined that the EU-line on Brexit can and will not change. Asked directly if she could show more flexibilty on for example fisheries in order to get a deal, the Danish Prime Minister answered:

"No. We can offer many things but no flexibility." A deal can be so bad that "it is not worth adopting" "It takes two to tango and the EU has shown that all the way but we will not make an agreement that undermines companies in Denmark, Sweden or Germany and we need a good agreement on fisheries.’

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Not been paying attention to the last few years I take it. Anyone else noticed that Johnson and chums have zero political clout in Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam to name but three? Or that UVL nixed Johnson talking to Macron or Merkel?

We can‘t even get them to return our phone calls.

Is that why Barnier has repeatedly been coming to London the past few weeks Bob, because the EU cant be bothered to return our calls? What a strange thing to do?!

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I find it very difficult to understand why they should have rights to govern our State aid, fishing or subject us to the ECJ once we are not in the EU. I can see that there may be a trade off in terms of giving a bit on one or all those things to get a bit of what we want in terms of frictionless trade / market access which of course we are not entitled to as a non EU state, but the reality that we are no longer an EU member does rather seem to be getting lost.

The only reason this can possibly be is because they are actually scared that we will be come too successful. If they thought we would fail they wouldn't be bothered at all.

They want to shackle us to their own limitations, limitations that EU states break when it suits them. IE the low corporation tax levels the ROI and Luxembourg have, that prop up their economies, the state aid France gave to their car manufacturers in the last recession, but strangely only those factories based in France. The state aid Italy gives its steel manufacturer's which is wrapped up under the umbrella of environmental grants.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

The only reason this can possibly be is because they are actually scared that we will be come too successful. If they thought we would fail they wouldn't be bothered at all.

They want to shackle us to their own limitations, limitations that EU states break when it suits them. IE the low corporation tax levels the ROI and Luxembourg have, that prop up their economies, the state aid France gave to their car manufacturers in the last recession, but strangely only those factories based in France. The state aid Italy gives its steel manufacturer's which is wrapped up under the umbrella of environmental grants.

Its called sovereignty ..... the Eu has no call on individual or corporate tax rates set by countries.... we do state aid as well (we renationalised the East Coast line and the Northern line) but Conservatives tend to choose not to .... because ideology. We could've bailed out British Steel using the same reasons the Italians did .... but ... ideology. We could finance our railways like in the Netherlands ... oh wait ... we choose to so... HS2