Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
Not really

We have left 'in name' - but it will be the outcome of this transition period that will determine if we have left in the real sense that Leavers hope for
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We did. We ceased legally to be an EU member state as of 31/1/20202. You obviously know that why deny it?
 
Cheesy said:
There's an element of truth to this no doubt.

I would rather we hadn't left the EU, but now that we have I'm desperate for a good deal for our country. Currently, I couldn't give much of a shit what the EU want.
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Good post.

Even as a Eurosceptic, I voted Remain but now... fuck what the EU want and what they think is best for them! Let’s hope that we get the best out of them that we can and if they dislike their end of the deal and spend years moaning about it, so what?!
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Excuse me but that is shite. I am all in favour of those things if your economy can afford them. their spending on pensions was way, way above anything else in Europe. Greece debt went through the roof because of that spending. Then came the financial crisis. Whatever happened next, be they in or out of the EU would have been painful for decades.
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The economy can afford them if they have their own currency, it is a political choice that they don't.

The narrative you speak off is the same one that enabled austerity in this country when It was totally needless and did lasting damage to the UK. It was done as a political choice not because it was necessary. It was a purely ideological decision to cut spending by the state to similar levels as that of the USA, whilst failing to take into account our country is different to the US.

Greece because it had the Euro had to abide by ECB rules, if it had kept the Drachma it could quite easily have coped as the Greek central bank could have created money. They didn't have a Central Bank so were subject to ECB rules on debt controls. Classic neo-liberalism all designed to funnel wealth upwards to those who have wealth.
 
journolud said:
I understand that you have felt offended by some of my interactions with you in the past and for that I apologise. It's far from a one way street on this thread , it has got heated on both sides often enough and I'll own my part in this. I can't help feeling though that you are using this as a bit of a smokescreen to avoid answering the questions.

You have consistently given your reasons for supporting Brexit and I understand them even if I don't agree with them. However, given that main aim of yours will be secured are you willing to say whether you think Brexit will materially improve your working conditions/ wages/ job security or worsen them or not have any impact at all.

Similarly, although you're not the only Brexiteer to do this, (with the possible exception of @mcfc1632 who again consistently makes the case for short term pain for long term gain), instead of relying on banter between yourselves to rubbish the questions, given the number of immediate inconveniences that Brexit will bring about, could you, or anyone, point to some of the quick wins from a material point of view (ie not freedom from the overarching control of the EU which is pretty abstract) in our day to day lives.
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Would there be any quick wins in our day-to-day lives? I’m not sure there would be, but don’t think leaving the EU was about that at all. And a lot of long term gains have to have short term regressions or early side issues anyway.

It’s a long term plan to be rid of over control of the EU and the ability to design our own policies in British business and agriculture - and politics - to benefit the UK. We can move away from Common Policies that benefit the EU as an entity (and only certain parts or certain countries in that entity) but not particularly Britain as a country. Short term we will be worse off from these things but, that’s natural, as they take time to build-up.

As @Rascal pointed out, Socialism and socialist politics could never have a foothold or even an influence under the EU banner. The neo-liberalist capitalism of the EU would never allow it in one of its major countries.

Not that there is a good socialist party in Britain at the moment to influence our lives or even get into power. But at least, long term, that can be an option to move into for socialists to look forward to.
 
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Psychedelic Casual said:
Would there be any quick wins in our day-to-day lives? I’m not sure there would be, but don’t think leaving the EU was about that at all. And a lot of long term gains have to have short term regressions or early side issues anyway.

It’s a long term plan to be rid of over control of the EU and the ability to design our own policies in British business and agriculture - and politics - to benefit the UK. We can move away from Common Policies that benefit the EU as an entity (and only certain parts or certain countries in that entity) but not particularly Britain as a country. Short term we will be worse off from these things but, that’s natural, as they take time to build-up.

As @Rascal pointed out, Socialism and socialist politics could never have a foothold or even an influence under the EU banner. The neo-liberalist capitalism of the EU would never allow it.

Not that there is a good socialist party in Britain at the moment to influence our lives or even get into power. But at least, long term, that can be an option to move into for socialists to look forward to.
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Plenty of quick wins revealed as lies here

www.channel4.com

FactCheck: the broken Brexit promises, half-truths and dodgy predictions from all sides

Get ready to relive it all…
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com
 
bluethrunthru said:
Plenty of quick wins revealed as lies here

www.channel4.com

FactCheck: the broken Brexit promises, half-truths and dodgy predictions from all sides

Get ready to relive it all…
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com
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That’s one of the reasons I voted Remain as I didn’t believe them. It was never about what they said it was about. I also wasn’t sure about leaving the EU under a Tory austerity govt and with the likes of Farage championing it at the time.

But I’ve always been a Eurosceptic and quite anti-EU. I’ve never thought being in the EU gets the best out of and for our country as we could by not being in the EU. And the future EU is looking worse than the one I already didn’t like.

And leaving the EU hasn’t been a issue of the 2010s and the things that those leading the Referendum said were the issues. Leaving the EU has been a topic of discussion for decades. Both the left right and middle ground over many decades have had huge reasons why we shouldn’t be in the EU.

I thought it was a bit too soon after the world financial crisis to leave the EU. But I’ve always wanted it really. Just the timing and the govt in power to see it through were wrong. But now it’s happened, and we just have to think of the long term, maybe we could get the right party in place in leading us away from the EU over the coming decades. Which wouldn’t be an option while we were in the EU. (This isn’t the current or recent-past Labour Party though, something big needs to happen on the left!)
 
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BobKowalski said:
So, to sum up the last few pages. Brexit will not make life even a tiny bit easier or better, a week in Benidorm is the reserve of the elite, the way Greece was treated means the UK should leave, but not Greece itself, and the EU agreeing a Covid rescue plan for member states mean we should suck up all these ‘trivial inconveniences’.

I’m not convinced that a country that lost its shit over KFC running out of chicken is going to accept a lot of ’trivial inconveniences’ for fuck all in return, but it’s going to be fun finding out.
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I've quite enjoyed the blossoming of new comedy double act Biker and Hilts over those last few pages.
 
Rascal said:
The economy can afford them if they have their own currency, it is a political choice that they don't.

The narrative you speak off is the same one that enabled austerity in this country when It was totally needless and did lasting damage to the UK. It was done as a political choice not because it was necessary. It was a purely ideological decision to cut spending by the state to similar levels as that of the USA, whilst failing to take into account our country is different to the US.

Greece because it had the Euro had to abide by ECB rules, if it had kept the Drachma it could quite easily have coped as the Greek central bank could have created money. They didn't have a Central Bank so were subject to ECB rules on debt controls. Classic neo-liberalism all designed to funnel wealth upwards to those who have wealth.
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That’s pretty naive mate. Do you understand how quantative easing works? Is that what you are suggesting for Greece? Your description of the reality of what Greece economy was like sure doesn’t match my understanding.
 
Rascal said:
The small narrative over the big vision is why I could not support remain.

I don't think there is one specific tangible thing that leaving the EU will enhance in UK life, but it gives the chance for a grand vision to be achieved. Now, there are two grand visions associated with leave, one is the ERG/Classical Liberal/Libertarian vision of unfettered neo liberalism, free market expansionist, corporatist domination, the other is a Socialist vision of regulated markets, statist capital controls and reduction of inequality. They both share some distinct similarities in that immigration control and national sovereignty are to the fore, but for differing reasons. If you are Pro EU, you resign yourself to a watered down version of what the UK ERG/Classical Liberals/Libertarians desire in that neo - liberalist ideology will still be prevalent, albeit not as extreme as the afore mentioned. It rules out any real possibility of leftist policies being enacted. The EU is a comfort blanket for liberals, but it is an inherently right wing project that locks out the left from political decision making and in that sense it is anti democratic. Yes the EU has thrown some sops to the working classes such as the working time directive but is main focus is on the enhancement on corporate control of the economy. In January 2015, the radical left party Syriza was elected, with its leader Alexis Tsipras declaring “Greece is leaving behind destructive austerity.” Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, responded that “To suggest that everything is going to change because there's a new government in Athens is to mistake dreams for reality… There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”
The economic warfare unleashed on Greece by the Troika witnessed living standards slashed, services privatised and workers' rights dismantled as part of what the Jubilee Debt Campaign has called “The Never-Ending Austerity Story”. That is the EU that exists, it is neo-liberal to its core and it is anti democrat as Juncker declares.

Meanwhile, the refugee crisis laid bare the callousness of Europe's rulers as thousands drowned fleeing war and instability. The EU deployed gunships despite criticism from aid groups such as the Red Cross and then made the deal of shame that saw the forced relocation of migrants from Greece to Turkey. UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein argued that “resources currently deployed for ineffective border control systems could instead be invested in maximizing the benefit of regular migration channels" The EU is in effect becoming a closed state that ignores obligations to the UN.

The Labour PLP was complicit in this by supporting the EU and its neo-liberal agenda, Corbyn had an avowed anti EU position for decades but was forced by the likes of Keith into the disastrous second referendum position/sitting on the fence position, which has all but destroyed leftist politics in this country such is the overarching might of the neo liberal EU position.

Now you can argue, BREXIT what does it do for me, it stops me living in a hut in the Austrian Alps, or a beach hut on Corsica, it stops your kids going to University in Unterhacing and yes the scary people on the RW of UK politics may make a killing out of BREXIT and that should be avoided of course, but it is a small price to pay if it means Leftism can be resurrected and the UK finally sees the RW clowns for what they are and votes in a proper Socialist government that puts people before profit and co-operatives before corporations.

I must admit it took me a long time to come to this position, because the EU did temper some of the ravages of Thatcherism and i also didn't really understand the complexity of the arguments. I have listened to hours of James O'Brien who is pro EU so i could work out what the counter arguments where and why they were important. I am still nowhere near educated enough to know what i really need to know, but i know enough to see that leaving without a deal despite its dangers and it being desired by the crackpot RW is the way we have to go and it is the only way i can foresee for the UK to have the Socialist state i really want.
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You are a right wing, racist, ignorant, thick as pig shit little englander who is scared of 'forriners'.

Do I win £5?

Amd for a bonus fiver I bet you live in a "crappy northern town" (©The Guardian)
 
Saddleworth2 said:
That’s pretty naive mate. Do you understand how quantative easing works? Is that what you are suggesting for Greece? Your description of the reality of what Greece economy was like sure doesn’t match my understanding.
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No, I am suggesting that Greece could have acted as it wished rather than have to obey the rules of the ECB. Whatever policy it decided to implement would have been a matter for them, in this case a matter for Syriza as they won the election. What is the point having elections if you can not introduce your own economic policies, whether they are good policies or bad is irrelevant, it is was their choice and they were not allowed to do it. Austerity was imposed upon Greece and that led to the rise of the far right Golden Dawn.

Syriza refuted the curtailment of democracy and the claim of "collective guilt" made upon Greece and claimed Fiscal consolidation and sustainable public debt cannot be achieved in an environment of austerity. It is only under conditions of economic recovery that the necessary reforms can be attempted and sustainable solutions found.

They could if they had wished followed a Keynesian model of growth as a way out of debt rather than the imposition of austerity way out of debt that the neo liberal ECB demanded.
 
Kazzydeyna said:
You are a right wing, racist, ignorant, thick as pig shit little englander who is scared of 'forriners'.

Do I win £5?

Amd for a bonus fiver I bet you live in a "crappy northern town" (©The Guardian)
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Sussed me out, now where are them forriners so i can blame them, especially those Jerries, dirty bastards.

Wule Bwittainia

I am off to get a bulldog tattoo on my forehead and whilst i am out i will shout some racist abuse at brown people as well.

The Guardian meanwhile is the epitome of liberal England, that its Mancunian roots have been forgotten is shameful and i wouldn't use it as toilet paper, it is the liberal version of the Mail.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Would there be any quick wins in our day-to-day lives? I’m not sure there would be, but don’t think leaving the EU was about that at all. And a lot of long term gains have to have short term regressions or early side issues anyway.

It’s a long term plan to be rid of over control of the EU and the ability to design our own policies in British business and agriculture - and politics - to benefit the UK. We can move away from Common Policies that benefit the EU as an entity (and only certain parts or certain countries in that entity) but not particularly Britain as a country. Short term we will be worse off from these things but, that’s natural, as they take time to build-up.

As @Rascal pointed out, Socialism and socialist politics could never have a foothold or even an influence under the EU banner. The neo-liberalist capitalism of the EU would never allow it in one of its major countries.

Not that there is a good socialist party in Britain at the moment to influence our lives or even get into power. But at least, long term, that can be an option to move into for socialists to look forward to.
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I wouldn’t say the EU is neoliberal, I think that term is thrown around faster than the same people Chuck “fascist” at those they disagree with.

Its certainly a liberal bloc, and within liberalism you get capitalism from an economic perspective but there are controls in place that would make even American politics struggle to be implemented.

The buffers to ensure workers rights, the environment, health etc. mean it’s not neoliberal in nature.

Sure, it’s economically right wing but neoliberalism is the extreme version of capitalism.

It’s like saying Starmer’s Labour are communist.

I’d be careful taking definitions from the poster you mention.
 
Denmark is in the EU, and quite adequately socialist for me. I'd like the UK to be more like Denmark. Brexit means it is far more likely to evolve into a crappy, tin-pot version of the USA.

Our obsession - delusion - about being "Great Power" will be the death of us all. Perhaps literally.
 
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