Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Surely Gina Miller will be taking legal action if parliament don't get time to scrutinise /ammend any deal?

Not more brexit bingo. Pret, Gina Miller, cakes, unicorns. (Oh, and people not using Pret means dairy farms closing.)

 

[Vic]

Well, it looks like blaming the EU is yet another failed policy.

 

[meltonblue]

Queueing in a different passport queue is an inconvenience. I’d argue losing the EHIC card is more than that though and the impact felt by those that are the least equipped to deal with it.

 

[jaseirai]

Second home owners, and oodles of ordinary people (let alone businesses) are going to be "inconvenienced" (and lose jobs...)

Now please explain how deprived coastal areas are going to benefit from Brexit.

As you've repeatedly demonstrated that there's no point engaging with you, I won't bother.

 

[Rascal]

Its acting as it wished that got it into such a bloody mess in the first place and effectively was bankrupt. That was a matter for them. That the loans that saved them came with conditions should surprise no one, particularly as similar policies were in place across the EU including the country that was doing most of the lending.

Not at all, i am no expert on Greece, i have only been once. If they had control of their own money they wouldn't have needed loans. Nail on the head though is policies in place across the EU, without economic convergence and a similar tax regime etc across the EU there were always going to be outliers. A point i made about remain not seeking full federalisation and becoming in effect one nation with one fiscal policy. Remain was always the neo-liberal status quo, with smaller nations having to toe the same line as the more prosperous nations.

The EU enforced a 25 per cent contraction in the size of the Greek economy and Greece’s debt to GDP ratio to grow from 120 per cent in 2010 (when it was already considered unsustainable) to 180 per cent by 2060. Yanis Varoufakis, said: ‘Greece didn’t get a bailout.’ The bailout went ‘primarily to French and German banks’. It is capitalism gone insane. The EU also demanded that Greece run a budget surplus and who pays for that, the poorest most vulnerable people in their country when pensions are cut, services are cut, wages are cut and all done in the name of neo-liberal dogma.

To support the EU and have all the benefits that are often eschewed here then you also have to have the neo liberal dogma, you can not eat your cake and have it.

As a Socialist I simply cannot support an ideal that makes the most vulnerable pay the price for the excesses of the wealthy and the attachment of blame to the Greek people for their situation is exactly what we see in the is country when the RW blame the poor and feckless for their plight.

 

[hilts]

Gosh, I'm glad I missed the crap on here today. Still...



You always could. Just stop new franchises. And the EU based companies running our railways are nationalised.
]


That explains a lot. Brexiteers like things hard and inconvenient.

Wasn't it a Leaver moan that Remainers had no empathy?



Today, he's been drawing a discreet veil over his privileges (only working when he chooses, 2nd home in Cyprus, residence permit so he avoids the new 90 day rule).

I can’t empathise over a stamped passport, sorry I did try:-(

 

[Vic]

Queueing in a different passport queue is an inconvenience. I’d argue losing the EHIC card is more than that though and the impact felt by those that are the least equipped to deal with it.

Too soon to say how much holiday insurance (for the privileged) will go up.

I wonder if it won't matter if you can get Cypriot citizenship.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Not more brexit bingo. Pret, Gina Miller, cakes, unicorns. (Oh, and people not using Pret means dairy farms closing.)

I thought Gina miller did an excellent job. As she told us at the time she was a brexiteer now too - she was just championing the right of parliament to scrutinise legislation. I can only hope she does the same service to the nation now, and can't understand why she's gone so quiet?

 

[Vic]

As you've repeatedly demonstrated that there's no point engaging with you, I won't bother.

It's an easy get out for not answering a straightforward question.

 

[meltonblue]

I thought Gina miller did an excellent job. As she told us at the time she was a brexiteer now too - she was just championing the right of parliament to scrutinise legislation. I can only hope she does the same service to the nation now, and can't understand why she's gone so quiet?

She’s gone quiet in the courts (for now), less so elsewhere. Seen a few opinion pieces she’s written recently.

 

[smudgedj]

Merkel must sacrifice German industry or Macron must appease French fishing boats.

This has only one outcome.

 

[Vic]

I thought Gina miller did an excellent job. As she told us at the time she was a brexiteer now too - she was just championing the right of parliament to scrutinise legislation. I can only hope she does the same service to the nation now, and can't understand why she's gone so quiet?

Unlike you going on about Gina Miller.

 

[Ban-jani]

I thought Gina miller did an excellent job. As she told us at the time she was a brexiteer now too - she was just championing the right of parliament to scrutinise legislation. I can only hope she does the same service to the nation now, and can't understand why she's gone so quiet?

She probably cannot be arsed with the lunatic fringe attacking her and calling her a traitor for merely wanting Parliament to do its job.

 

[Bill]

be nice ffs.

 

[mcfc1632]

Wiki has a shot at quantifying these trivial inconveniences:

There is overwhelming or near-unanimous agreement among economists that leaving the European Union will adversely affect the British economy in the medium- and long-term.[a][39] Surveys of economists in 2016 showed overwhelming agreement that Brexit would likely reduce the UK's real per-capita income level.[40][30][31] 2019 and 2017 surveys of existing academic research found that the credible estimates ranged between GDP losses of 1.2–4.5% for the UK,[39] and a cost of between 1–10% of the UK's income per capita.[25] These estimates differ depending on whether the UK does a Hard or Soft Brexit.[25] In January 2018, the UK government's own Brexit analysis was leaked; it showed that UK economic growth would be stunted by 2–8% for at least 15 years following Brexit, depending on the leave scenario.[41][42]

According to most economists, EU membership has a strong positive effect on trade and, as a result, the UK's trade would be worse off if it left the EU.[43][44][45][46] According to a study by University of Cambridge economists, under a hard Brexit, whereby the UK reverts to WTO rules, one-third of UK exports to the EU would be tariff-free, one-quarter would face high trade barriers and other exports risk tariffs in the range of 1–10%.[47] A 2017 study found that "almost all UK regions are systematically more vulnerable to Brexit than regions in any other country."[48] A 2017 study examining the economic impact of Brexit-induced reductions in migration" found that there would likely be "a significant negative impact on UK GDP per capita (and GDP), with marginal positive impacts on wages in the low-skill service sector."[49][25] It is unclear how changes in trade and foreign investment will interact with immigration, but these changes are likely to be important.[25]

Which in no way refutes the point I made - rather only supports it

 

[journolud]

Redirect Notice

Seems a while since anybody mentioned the queues and perhaps we should be making light of this but I wonder what the impact is on the people driving these trucks in terms of their working hours and their physical and mental health. Still I’m sure once we clinch a last minute deal they’ll all be able to look back and laugh

 

[mcfc1632]

The EU was not the reason for the Greek economic crisis though was it? They were hardly innocent victims in what happened. Those living standard slashes were things like cutting back on pensions that had men retiring at 55 and women at 50. Guaranteed annual pay rises, guaranteed holiday bonus wages, guaranteed christmas bonus wages. Stuff that we all enjoy.

it has not been suggested that the EU was responsible for such deep-rooted issues - issues that abound across a lot of other EU members

The point was the words:

"Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, responded that “To suggest that everything is going to change because there's a new government in Athens is to mistake dreams for reality… There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”
The economic warfare unleashed on Greece by the Troika witnessed living standards slashed, services privatised and workers' rights dismantled as part of what the Jubilee Debt Campaign has called “The Never-Ending Austerity Story”. That is the EU that exists, it is neo-liberal to its core and it is anti democrat as Juncker declares."

That expression of absolute authority of the EU over a 'sovereign' country was quite contemptuous and reflects the reality that the UK seeks to avoid.

UVL has recently made comments equally dismissive with regard to status of Germany

That was the point being made

BTW - the fact that such deep-rooted issues exist in so many EU members should inform your assessment of the impact of debt-mutualisation - and the likelihood of it being a 'one-off' event - don't you think?

 

[mcfc1632]

I understand that you have felt offended by some of my interactions with you in the past and for that I apologise. It's far from a one way street on this thread , it has got heated on both sides often enough and I'll own my part in this. I can't help feeling though that you are using this as a bit of a smokescreen to avoid answering the questions.

You have consistently given your reasons for supporting Brexit and I understand them even if I don't agree with them. However, given that main aim of yours will be secured are you willing to say whether you think Brexit will materially improve your working conditions/ wages/ job security or worsen them or not have any impact at all.

Similarly, although you're not the only Brexiteer to do this, (with the possible exception of @mcfc1632 who again consistently makes the case for short term pain for long term gain), instead of relying on banter between yourselves to rubbish the questions, given the number of immediate inconveniences that Brexit will bring about, could you, or anyone, point to some of the quick wins from a material point of view (ie not freedom from the overarching control of the EU which is pretty abstract) in our day to day lives.

Won't be 'pretty abstract' in the impact on the lives of your grandchildren

Thankfully for them - some of us take the strategic view

 

[Saddleworth2]

it has not been suggested that the EU was responsible for such deep-rooted issues - issues that abound across a lot of other EU members

The point was the words:

"Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, responded that “To suggest that everything is going to change because there's a new government in Athens is to mistake dreams for reality… There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”
The economic warfare unleashed on Greece by the Troika witnessed living standards slashed, services privatised and workers' rights dismantled as part of what the Jubilee Debt Campaign has called “The Never-Ending Austerity Story”. That is the EU that exists, it is neo-liberal to its core and it is anti democrat as Juncker declares."

That expression of absolute authority of the EU over a 'sovereign' country was quite contemptuous and reflects the reality that the UK seeks to avoid.

UVL has recently made comments equally dismissive with regard to status of Germany

That was the point being made

BTW - the fact that such deep-rooted issues exist in so many EU members should inform your assessment of the impact of debt-mutualisation - and the likelihood of it being a 'one-off' event - don't you think?

I gave my views on debt mutualisation. You ignored them. And I suspect the words you quoted were prompted to remind a sovereign country about the arrangements it had signed up to.

 

[journolud]

Won't be 'pretty abstract' in the impact on the lives of your grandchildren

Thankfully for them - some of us take the strategic view

Don’t patronise me mate, neither of us will be here by the time any grandchildren I might have are adult and we’ll never know. Meanwhile some of my two sons’ life choices are reduced and hopefully COVID and Brexit don’t combine to scupper the careers they have chosen for themselves. In those circumstances children might be a luxury they can’t afford