Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

So.......

Let's just check -what you are saying here

You genuinely believe that the UK are going to bring back the death penalty and that the UK is going to leave the ECHR

That is really what you are saying?

I don't know about the death penalty but many Tories would happily pave the way by withdrawing from the EHCR. No doubt the way to stay in the ECHR would be to have a viable walkaway option. Seriously, it's in the manifesto to tinker with the legislation that gives effect to the ECHR.

 

[BobKowalski]

Apparently the Eu has ensured that post Brexit UK will respect human rights by building a clause that Eu -UK agreements would be voided if the UK government leaves or violates ECHR.....

View attachment 7267



So Batty Patels proposal of bringing back the death sentence looks like a non starter.

What are Europeans like eh? Protecting us from the Tories even after we've left.

It‘s been a long standing Tory ambition to leave the ECHR, so this provision was encouraging. Building in retaliatory measures to ensure both sides stick to the deal with respect to labour and environmental standards is also good news.

 

[mcfc1632]

As I said,like most of Breaxit not as bad as it could have been, just a bit worse than before.

From 1 January 2021, GHICs and most UK EHICs will not cover you in Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland.

Do you travel there often?

Seriously though, the big issues being brought up - actually do not seem that big

Which must be a good thing?

 

[BobKowalski]

Thank you. Not as good as the one we've had but a FTZ all the same. I've just no time for people like Gove who made the promise, then supported the No Deal option till March last year when he was against No Deal because it was not what was promised, but then forgot about the promise again. But if I got upset about Gove's duplicity and hypocrisy I'd be permanently upset.

Well, it’s a tariff free deal, the non tariff barriers remain which will impact small to medium sized business more than larger ones. The idea of the FTZ was we would trade pretty much as we did as members, but that is far from the case with the deal as it stands.

On the plus side, we are likely to be negotiating some of the NTB’s away in the years to come.

 

[BobKowalski]

Do you travel there often?

Seriously though, the big issues being brought up - actually do not seem that big

Which must be a good thing?

Why are they a thing at all? The ambition was that there would be no issues, big or small, yet here we are with lots of issues. Again you have to sell the positives, not simply say, well the loss of ‘x’ isn’t that big a deal.

List the positives. The real ones, not the ones you make up. The actual concrete positives as of 1st Jan.

 

[mcfc1632]

I do wonder if despite all the dramatic sunny uplands / apocalypse hysteria most of us will actually not notice any particular difference after Jan? Ever since 2016 there has been a repeating cycle of cliff-edge dire predictions that have all turned out to be rubbish as well as some equally exaggerated claims of brexit benefits. In truth f-all seems to be different for anyone. I'm sure there are outliers and examples of individual hardship and tragedy btw and don't wish to make light of them, but in general terms life seems to just trundle on.

All right for you do say that Jack

If it had not been for being in a Tier 4 location, I had been planning to spend a few weeks touring Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein or Switzerland in the New Year;-)

 

[west didsblue]

So, zero tariffs, zero quotas, access to the single market, no ECJ jurisdiction, no EU regulations and no membership fees, and just for one particular member, the UK stays in a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Russia. I’m happy with the outcome.

Not sure zero tariffs zero quotas but added non-tariff barriers quite counts as a FTZ or full access to the Single Market. I’m also not sure that signing up to LPF principles means no EU regulations but if it makes you happy to think that...

 

[mcfc1632]

So, zero tariffs, zero quotas, access to the single market, no ECJ jurisdiction, no EU regulations and no membership fees, and just for one particular member, the UK stays in a free trade zone that extends from Iceland to Russia. I’m happy with the outcome.

No - get with the narrative

The Leave supporters feel very badly let down - indeed, devastated

I am strangely and guiltily, feeling very content that we have ended up genuinely out of the EU - in a manner that would seem to confirm that there will be no BRINO outcome and the prospect of re-joining is a fantasy

But I am told that I need to feel badly let down, so I will strive to curb these feelings

 

[mcfc1632]

Thing is .... the Death Penalty is not a deterrent .... The UK suspended the Death sentence for a five years in the 60's and the homicide rate stayed exactly the same as when the Death Penalty was in place.(the results were the main driver for abolishing it) The only fall in deaths that were achieved was that we didn't hang anyone who was innocent

And you are continuing to raise this on the Brexit thread because?

 

[mcfc1632]

A look at ways the deal can be improved. Some highlights...

Secure data adequacy and deepen provisions on digital trade. Establish regulatory dialogues, starting with financial services, as part of financial services equivalence. Reach Mutual Recognition Agreements to address testing of industrial goods, and veterinary equivalence for food products. Explore membership of major European regulatory bodies on issues such as aircraft safety (EASA).

Our major new analysis of the EU-UK trade deal highlights ten areas that must be addressed urgently to deal with non-tariff trade barriers looming come January 1st.

NEW REPORT: Towards a modern UK-EU trade relationship

A major new analysis of the EU-UK trade deal highlights ten areas that must be addressed urgently to deal with non-tariff trade barriers looming come January 1st.

www.bestforbritain.org

As the coming years unfold, I will be surprised if there are not a good number of joint / partnering ways of working identified between the EU and an independent UK

The EU probably just needed to go through a process of 'letting the UK go' and then a period of getting over it.

 

[mcfc1632]

They are (quite nicely) presenting the case for reunification. and don't forget that under the GFA everyone in NI is entitled to an EU Passport and Freedom of Movement.

Self-determination has always been a priority for me

If N.I. decide to seek unification with Ireland then it should be supported

Same with Scotland if they vote for independence (they won't) - that should also be fully supported

 

[mcfc1632]

Thank you. Not as good as the one we've had but a FTZ all the same. I've just no time for people like Gove who made the promise, then supported the No Deal option till March last year when he was against No Deal because it was not what was promised, but then forgot about the promise again. But if I got upset about Gove's duplicity and hypocrisy I'd be permanently upset.

Or - another way of presenting the position is that.......

A FTZ was promised from Finland to Siberia - and it has been delivered. Let's all be more fulsome in our recognition of this.

We could then add to that a level of admiration that the UK forced this outcome through their determination to face the EU down by keeping the option of a no-deal outcome open

That is how I might present it.

 

[west didsblue]

Or - another way of presenting the position is that.......

A FTZ was promised from Finland to Siberia - and it has been delivered. Let's all be more fulsome in our recognition of this.

We could then add to that a level of admiration that the UK forced this outcome through their determination to face the EU down by keeping the option of a no-deal outcome open

That is how I might present it.

Geography isn’t your strong point is it?

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Or - another way of presenting the position is that.......

A FTZ was promised from Finland to Siberia - and it has been delivered. Let's all be more fulsome in our recognition of this.

We could then add to that a level of admiration that the UK forced this outcome through their determination to face the EU down by keeping the option of a no-deal outcome open

That is how I might present it.

Delusional. The EU have given away nothing. We are fully committed to EU trade rules. The no deal threat achieved nothing. This deal could have been done by May 2 years ago - the reason it wasn't was Johnson and the ERG would not have supported it. We are rule takers.

 

[blueparrot]

Delusional. The EU have given away nothing. We are fully committed to EU trade rules. The no deal threat achieved nothing. This deal could have been done by May 2 years ago - the reason it wasn't was Johnson and the ERG would not have supported it. We are rule takers.

I don’t know much about the details of these things, but isn’t this similar to a Canada deal, that was offered by the EU at the start as one of their off the shelf deals along with Norway type deals but we turned down because we thought we could get Canada plus, ie without LPF commitments ? As I say a real question as I don’t know.

edit
In fact seems to off an old dusty shelf.

Brexit deal mentions Netscape browser and Mozilla Mail

Experts suggest officials saved time by copying and pasting text from old legislation.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Vic]

Or - another way of presenting the position is that.......

A FTZ was promised from Finland to Siberia - and it has been delivered. Let's all be more fulsome in our recognition of this.

We could then add to that a level of admiration that the UK forced this outcome through their determination to face the EU down by keeping the option of a no-deal outcome open

That is how I might present it.

On those terms, you negotiated a deal by threatening to break a promise made to get people to vote Leave.

 

[mcfc1632]

I don't know about the death penalty but many Tories would happily pave the way by withdrawing from the EHCR. No doubt the way to stay in the ECHR would be to have a viable walkaway option. Seriously, it's in the manifesto to tinker with the legislation that gives effect to the ECHR.

Ha - there you go again

Hate Tories = hate Brexit - you really should not always conflate the 2 subjects

Reality is - the UK leaving the ECHR and the restoration of the death penalty has got absolutely fuck all to do with the topic of the UK leaving the EU in the scope of a referendum held in 2016 and finalised in 2020

Just more #FBPE bogeymen used to try and perversely link Brexit to something scary

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

They are (quite nicely) presenting the case for reunification. and don't forget that under the GFA everyone in NI is entitled to an EU Passport and Freedom of Movement.

Hmmmm...not quite, anyone born on the island of Ireland can get an Irish passport. Almost the same thing....

 

[Len Rum]

As the coming years unfold, I will be surprised if there are not a good number of joint / partnering ways of working identified between the EU and an independent UK

The EU probably just needed to go through a process of 'letting the UK go' and then a period of getting over it.

I'm sure the EU are delighted with the deal mate.
Protected the single market.
Protected their surplus in goods trade with the UK.
Become more competitive in their own domestic markets at our expense on services
Better ways of working jointly may of course happen but worth remembering that neither side will accept loss of sovereignty/compomising integrity of single market so limited scope here IMO.

 

[west didsblue]

Delusional. The EU have given away nothing. We are fully committed to EU trade rules. The no deal threat achieved nothing. This deal could have been done by May 2 years ago - the reason it wasn't was Johnson and the ERG would not have supported it. We are rule takers.

From what I can gather you’re exactly right. It’s a Canada deal with LPF which the EU offered about a year ago. The negotiators have been fucking around for a year hoping no one would notice and giving no time for scrutiny. As it’s only going to be a provisional arrangement from 1 Jan and the EU Parliament is planning not to approve it until the end of March, it gives us plenty of time for all the detail to become apparent to anyone who’s interested and it will be fascinating to see how it pans out in Parliament.

The fact that the Brexiteers on here were declaring satisfaction with it within seconds of it being announced last Friday proves to anyone that gives a shit that all they’re interested in is winning an argument on here and if it doesn’t personally affect them too much then all the better.