Are Labour a total shambles now as an opposition?

Good point.

I suppose the important thing to remember as well in these debates about the economy is that economic growth isn’t the be all and end all.

This is actually a extremely important remark to make within a contemporary culture of mass consumerism and political ligitimacy by abillety to service the consumer. To be fair the political narrative of the last 50 years in fact seems to be that this system has proven itself by vritue that soviets couldn't buy fridges and washing machine's in the 70's, or something like that atleast. In practicle every western country "the economy" is the main political theme and it's often a game of postering about economic prowes for politicians. Like Trump, the art of the deal man TM.

But to be fair: there are a million directions a self determinist society could go into, and the diversity of cultures on the globe is so great that one should rationalise the chosen directions of his own culture as more of a cultural product rather than a logical imperative.
 
This is actually a extremely important remark to make within a contemporary culture of mass consumerism and political ligitimacy by abillety to service the consumer. To be fair the political narrative of the last 50 years in fact seems to be that this system has proven itself by vritue that soviets couldn't buy fridges and washing machine's in the 70's, or something like that atleast.
I think a stronger argument in favour of capitalism is that inventions such as the fridge and the washing machine were much less likely to be conceived, and absolutely less subject to development under a collectivist economic model. These are (the types of) inventions that have made life for ordinary people far easier. The profit motive has advanced human progress more as any other factor, other than perhaps warfare.
 
I think a stronger argument in favour of capitalism is that inventions such as the fridge and the washing machine were much less likely to be conceived

Don't dig youreself a pit with that argument, obviously there's millions of years left for invention, you have to recognise that even for youre argument it would need to be seen as a function of time, aka can we have technoligy faster than otherwise.

And furthermore there is an inverse to it. Never did technoligy develop as fast during world wars, but it's hard to argue that faster innovation would be worth a world war. So as a guiding value technological progress still has a relative worth?

The profit motive has advanced human progress more as any other factor, other than perhaps warfare.

I think it's crucial to ask if we can't change the "profit" part here with "compensation". Increased compensation can motivate too, but is more strictly limited than profit.

What this boils down really is the question: "do you need capitalism to be able to create innovation trough competition"?

As a product developer i'd say there is few innovation actually provided by the managers rather than the actual engineers in that field, and yes the project leader gets a larger compensation. Still quite different than to launch youre product based on youre own design trough youre own company to then be able to potentially make rediculous profits. In fact its rather hard to go too complex as a starting entrepeneur given potential investment requirements, most significant technoligy gets developed under larger firms often even subsidised by the state only illustrating the more relevant capital requirements of it. Smaller entrepeneurs often more target such things like consumerist fad's, much innovation that.

If the state would need to organise the innovation then fine it would need to have some competing teams for their grants. Afaik when it regards the spending of the US DoD a lot of it goes to internal research projects and that provides a lot of cutting edge technoligy.
 
Don't dig youreself a pit with that argument, obviously there's millions of years left for invention, you have to recognise that even for youre argument it would need to be seen as a function of time, aka can we have technoligy faster than otherwise.
If you want to run a parallel argument around what would be best for humanity in a few million years then good for you, but from the luxury of my pit, I’m dealing with the here and now.
 
If you want to run a parallel argument around what would be best for humanity in a few million years then good for you, but from the luxury of my pit, I’m dealing with the here and now.

Same here. Especially considering that a lot of technoligy also gets developed within non profit organisations like educational centers and other state research institutions.

If i take the consideration that the speed of innovation has limits to it's cost, then i can also consider this matter in context for example of the practicle rising gap in wealth that is occuring in western society's for the last 50 or so years. Perhaps the argument could be made that decreasing this gap wouldn't nessecarily impede technological progress for what could perhaps could be a large social gain, it's not like technological progress was so limited when capitalism was far less succesfull in being greedy as it appears today.

Even then, form a engineering perspective there are many different philosophy's to consider, one of this is the concept of open source technoligy versus patents. One questions the requirement for high profitabillety within private enterprise versus the benifit of having a better technological spread and addaptation rate, especially when the state can create a competitive enviroment for it's technological grants that is rather based on compensation. Again private and public interrests are perpendicular here, i would think the faster addoptation and spread would serve the state's interrest.
 
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If you want to run a parallel argument around what would be best for humanity in a few million years then good for you, but from the luxury of my pit, I’m dealing with the here and now.
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