Arsenal Thread 2014/15

[Cellarite]

What we, or Chelsea, or the vermin, or the mickeys do re. transfer/financial dealings is none of Wenger's business. When the media look for his opinion on these matters, he should respond with something like ''How they conduct their business is their concern, not mine. I am only interested in making Arsenal as strong as I can''. How difficult is that?

Very difficult for a curtain twitchernt.

Fixed that for you.

How do you do that crossing out malarkey? I call witchcraft.

 

[jimharri]

Very difficult for a curtain twitchernt.

Fixed that for you.

How do you do that crossing out malarkey? I call witchcraft.

You see where the spoiler button is above the text box? Immediately to the left of that button is another button with an 's' in it;

Click and hold, then drag to highlight the text you want to strike out, then click on the 's' button. I shouldn't really be helping you out after the farce of the latest Corrie babes contest though.

 

[Cellarite]

Fixed that for you.

How do you do that crossing out malarkey? I call witchcraft.

You see where the spoiler button is above the text box? Immediately to the left of that button is another button with an 's' in it;

Click and hold, then drag to highlight the text you want to strike out, then click on the 's' button. I shouldn't really be helping you out after the farce pure excitement of the latest Corrie babes contest though.

Edited for accuracy.

 

[jimharri]

Edited for accuracyconspiracy.

Indeed.

 

[petrusha]

I find your use of tense a little confusing here. Are you saying that AS Monaco engaged in financial doping while Wenger was in charge there, or that they do so now? Since the takeover by Russian billionaire Rybolovlev they've obviously been able to spend huge amounts, but after a little cursory research I haven't been able to find anything about the sums they spent on players in the past (admittedly I haven't looked for very long). Since the rest of your post is so impeccably well research I assume you couldn't find anything specific about this either?

Here's my alternative hypothesis: as this article mentions, (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/sep/20/monaco-money-ambition-not-many-supporters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... supporters</a>) Monaco have never had much support, but that does not mean they haven't enjoyed success, with more than 5 domestic titles, 5 domestic cup wins and two European finals appearances (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=30983/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=30983/</a>). The Guardian's article suggests that because of it's location - Monaco is a tiny principality where Europe's super-rich escape to live free of tax- and the disposition of Monacans (is that the right word), the club have always struggled for support, despite their considerable success. Now, I don't know if they have relied on huge injections of cash in order to buy quality players, but I think it my be the favorable tax laws which are at play here. Foreign players are exempt from paying tax on their huge wages if they play for Monaco while still competing in the French Ligue 1. Perhaps that has helped them in achieving so much success in their pre-takeover history? Now does tax exemption on wages constitute financial doping? Maybe, I could see that argument.

With regard to Wenger I guess it is a matter of the scale of hypocrisy. On the one hand he does complain about financial doping a lot, so it would be outrageously hypocritical if he engaged in exactly that during his time in Monaco (i.e. utilizing huge cash injections to purchase players in order to be competitive). On the other hand it does seem a bit odd for him to speak so fondly about his former club when it is the prime example of financial doping in the present, although I think this is clearly less hypocritical. than if he himself had been in charge when that financial doping was taking place.

I'm saying Monaco engaged in what Wenger calls "financial doping" when he was at Monaco.

We're talking about an era in which, across Europe, overwhelmingly the main source of income for all football clubs was gate money. If you want to know what kind of money Monaco were spending at the time, then in the summer of 1987 Wenger splashed out big fees on Mark Hateley from AC Milan(this isn't a great source, but it does refer to a reported GBP 2 million fee: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.portsmouth.vitalfootball.co.uk/sitepage.asp?a=133405" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.portsmouth.vitalfootball.co. ... p?a=133405</a>). The same source refers to Glenn Hoddle, who also signed in the summer of 1987, as having cost GBP 750K.

(I'd like to source this better. I'm afraid I simply don't have time, but I do believe that the figures are pretty well accurate. I also believe that Monaco had French players at the time who hadn't come cheap, but again I'm too busy to research this further right now.)

For comparison purposes, Liverpool broke the British transfer record in the summer of 1987 to buy Peter Beardsley from Newcastle for GBP 1.9 million. Average league gates of over 36,000 in the 1986/87 season weren't enough to put the Merseyside club in a position to do that deal. They needed the cash from Ian Rush's move to Juventus, too.

Wenger took Monaco from fifth in the season before he took over to champions in his first season. Hateley was his top scorer, while Hoddle was voted the best foreign player in France and was widely regarded as being the inspiration behind the success (Wenger called him the most talented player he ever worked with).

Now, I know a lot of rich people live in Monaco so I assume their gate prices were a little bit higher than at Dean Court or Leeds Road, where the level of crowds was pretty well identical. But even so, it wouldn't have been possible for them to have spent the GBP 2.75 million (including one buy for more money than any English club had ever spent on a player at that time) which bought their top scorer and their best player in Wenger's championship season.

Admittedly, I don't have access to Monaco's accounts, so we're in the realms of opinion here. However, I would contend there's no conceivable possibility whatsoever that AS Monaco could have generated the GBP 2.75 million they spent on Hoddle and Hateley from the football club's own operations.

There must have been external funding. And that's why I regard Wenger as an absolute hypocrite when he speaks about "financial doping".

(Actually, I did live in France and follow French football for a while and it was regarded as common knowledge that the royals in Monaco bankrolled the club. However, I do appreciate that this anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much if we want a strong level of proof.)

Yes, you're correct about the tax issue. That factor has always allowed Monaco to pay less to players in order to guarantee the same net salary that those players would have received at other clubs. Arguably it amounts to an unfair advantage and attempts to address it have caused controversy, but it wasn't what I had in mind when I made my post.

A couple of other unrelated points:

- For my sins, I work in Russia and hear rumours that Rybolovlev may be unwilling to carry on funding Monaco to the level he has been doing until now (not that he'd pull out entirely, and I think he'll regard regular CL football as his aspiration, but IMO he won't be trying to compete long term with PSG). I did call Kerimov pulling the plug at Anzhi last year, too, when almost no one else did, so I have some form in this regard.

- People from Monaco are called Monégasque, with English simply taking the French word for them (see the OED here - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Mon%C3%A9gasque?q=monegasque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... monegasque</a>). :)

 

[Ronuja]

I find your use of tense a little confusing here. Are you saying that AS Monaco engaged in financial doping while Wenger was in charge there, or that they do so now? Since the takeover by Russian billionaire Rybolovlev they've obviously been able to spend huge amounts, but after a little cursory research I haven't been able to find anything about the sums they spent on players in the past (admittedly I haven't looked for very long). Since the rest of your post is so impeccably well research I assume you couldn't find anything specific about this either?

Here's my alternative hypothesis: as this article mentions, (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/sep/20/monaco-money-ambition-not-many-supporters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... supporters</a>) Monaco have never had much support, but that does not mean they haven't enjoyed success, with more than 5 domestic titles, 5 domestic cup wins and two European finals appearances (<a class="postlink" href="http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=30983/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/clubs/club=30983/</a>). The Guardian's article suggests that because of it's location - Monaco is a tiny principality where Europe's super-rich escape to live free of tax- and the disposition of Monacans (is that the right word), the club have always struggled for support, despite their considerable success. Now, I don't know if they have relied on huge injections of cash in order to buy quality players, but I think it my be the favorable tax laws which are at play here. Foreign players are exempt from paying tax on their huge wages if they play for Monaco while still competing in the French Ligue 1. Perhaps that has helped them in achieving so much success in their pre-takeover history? Now does tax exemption on wages constitute financial doping? Maybe, I could see that argument.

With regard to Wenger I guess it is a matter of the scale of hypocrisy. On the one hand he does complain about financial doping a lot, so it would be outrageously hypocritical if he engaged in exactly that during his time in Monaco (i.e. utilizing huge cash injections to purchase players in order to be competitive). On the other hand it does seem a bit odd for him to speak so fondly about his former club when it is the prime example of financial doping in the present, although I think this is clearly less hypocritical. than if he himself had been in charge when that financial doping was taking place.

I'm saying Monaco engaged in what Wenger calls "financial doping" when he was at Monaco.

We're talking about an era in which, across Europe, overwhelmingly the main source of income for all football clubs was gate money. If you want to know what kind of money Monaco were spending at the time, then in the summer of 1987 Wenger splashed out big fees on Mark Hateley from AC Milan(this isn't a great source, but it does refer to a reported GBP 2 million fee: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.portsmouth.vitalfootball.co.uk/sitepage.asp?a=133405" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.portsmouth.vitalfootball.co. ... p?a=133405</a>). The same source refers to Glenn Hoddle, who also signed in the summer of 1987, as having cost GBP 750K.

(I'd like to source this better. I'm afraid I simply don't have time, but I do believe that the figures are pretty well accurate. I also believe that Monaco had French players at the time who hadn't come cheap, but again I'm too busy to research this further right now.)

For comparison purposes, Liverpool broke the British transfer record in the summer of 1987 to buy Peter Beardsley from Newcastle for GBP 1.9 million. Average league gates of over 36,000 in the 1986/87 season weren't enough to put the Merseyside club in a position to do that deal. They needed the cash from Ian Rush's move to Juventus, too.

Wenger took Monaco from fifth in the season before he took over to champions in his first season. Hateley was his top scorer, while Hoddle was voted the best foreign player in France and was widely regarded as being the inspiration behind the success (Wenger called him the most talented player he ever worked with).

Now, I know a lot of rich people live in Monaco so I assume their gate prices were a little bit higher than at Dean Court or Leeds Road, where the level of crowds was pretty well identical. But even so, it wouldn't have been possible for them to have spent the GBP 2.75 million (including one buy for more money than any English club had ever spent on a player at that time) which bought their top scorer and their best player in Wenger's championship season.

Admittedly, I don't have access to Monaco's accounts, so we're in the realms of opinion here. However, I would contend there's no conceivable possibility whatsoever that AS Monaco could have generated the GBP 2.75 million they spent on Hoddle and Hateley from the football club's own operations.

There must have been external funding. And that's why I regard Wenger as an absolute hypocrite when he speaks about "financial doping".

(Actually, I did live in France and follow French football for a while and it was regarded as common knowledge that the royals in Monaco bankrolled the club. However, I do appreciate that this anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much if we want a strong level of proof.)

Yes, you're correct about the tax issue. That factor has always allowed Monaco to pay less to players in order to guarantee the same net salary that those players would have received at other clubs. Arguably it amounts to an unfair advantage and attempts to address it have caused controversy, but it wasn't what I had in mind when I made my post.

A couple of other unrelated points:

- For my sins, I work in Russia and hear rumours that Rybolovlev may be unwilling to carry on funding Monaco to the level he has been doing until now (not that he'd pull out entirely, and I think he'll regard regular CL football as his aspiration, but IMO he won't be trying to compete long term with PSG). I did call Kerimov pulling the plug at Anzhi last year, too, when almost no one else did, so I have some form in this regard.

- People from Monaco are called Monégasque, with English simply taking the French word for them (see the OED here - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Mon%C3%A9gasque?q=monegasque" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... monegasque</a>). :)

Your arguments are sound, I think you have exposed Wenger a little bit here. When he criticizes the likes of Chelsea and City for their spending I'm sure he does it because he feels it's in Arsenal's interest to do so, but you know what they say about throwing stones and living in glass houses. Monegasque is definitely the coolest sounding nationality there is.

 

[M18CTID]

Your arguments are sound, I think you have exposed Wenger a little bit here. When he criticizes the likes of Chelsea and City for their spending I'm sure he does it because he feels it's in Arsenal's interest to do so, but you know what they say about throwing stones and living in glass houses. Monegasque is definitely the coolest sounding nationality there is.

I don't think I can add too much to this, suffice to say that while I've commended Petrusha, it's only fair to point out that you've contributed to a good debate as well. While it would be difficult to defend Wenger's double standards on this issue, he's not alone when it comes to hypocrisy in football - most managers will show hypocritical traits at some point or other. However, Wenger's comments irk us more than most simply because more often than not they're aimed at our club. If they were aimed elsewhere we wouldn't get anywhere near as het up about them.

That said, I still stand by my point about his latest quotes re Lampard and that is that they weren't anywhere near as bad as the headlines suggested.

 

[petrusha]

While it would be difficult to defend Wenger's double standards on this issue, he's not alone when it comes to hypocrisy in football - most managers will show hypocritical traits at some point or other. However, Wenger's comments irk us more than most simply because more often than not they're aimed at our club. If they were aimed elsewhere we wouldn't get anywhere near as het up about them.

Of course, the text I've quoted is true. I was just annoyed, given Wenger's inability to keep quiet about us in the context of FFP, for him to be banging on about his time at Monaco and how proud he was of it. I think it's something that should be highlighted somewhere. If I have time (which is not a given, regrettably), I may turn the above posts into an article and see if I can put it on the web somewhere.

 

[M18CTID]

While it would be difficult to defend Wenger's double standards on this issue, he's not alone when it comes to hypocrisy in football - most managers will show hypocritical traits at some point or other. However, Wenger's comments irk us more than most simply because more often than not they're aimed at our club. If they were aimed elsewhere we wouldn't get anywhere near as het up about them.

Of course, the text I've quoted is true. I was just annoyed, given Wenger's inability to keep quiet about us in the context of FFP, for him to be banging on about his time at Monaco and how proud he was of it. I think it's something that should be highlighted somewhere. If I have time (which is not a given, regrettably), I may turn the above posts into an article and see if I can put it on the web somewhere.

Yep, it annoys me too mate. Not quite as much as it used to though but regarding our spending and FFP it feels like we've been constantly under attack from all quarters - as well as Wenger popping his head above the parapet every now and then, we've had Rummenigge and his tax-dodging mate Hoeness over at Bayern sticking their oar in, plus that clown Henry that co-owns Liverpool with his snide "How much was the losing bid?" Tweet when referring to the Etihad deal, yet they hilariously went on to sign a huge kit deal with the very same company that supplies kit to the Boston Red Sox. Equally hilarious were Mourinho's snide comments last season which were every bit as hypocritical as Wenger's!

 

[leighton]

I dont know how they do it but with Vermaelen and the rumoured £10 million plus they will get for him. Thats some money for a player who has been a bit part player for them all of last season. Its like every player they sign they make a profit off them when they sell them on.

Think this season they will be a lot better. I know with the signings they made they have a chance of getting closer to us this season I think they will be 1 of our main rivals for the title this season along with Chelsea can see Liverpool going the way Spurs did with all that money spent they wont get a settled team this season and more games they will be tested.

Think Joel Campbell for Arsenal might be the 1 for them to make a real impression and get a few goals for them. They missed someone else to help Giroud last season to score goals up front and he seems to have the speed to cause defences problems.