Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[mcfc1632]

Dictatorship of the executive over the legislature is what you mean. A blank cheque for May to do as she pleases in our name, to take us to a destination god knows where, in secret, with no scrutiny by Parliament and no effective sanction.

But Fumble - I have read posts from you and others who are strong advocates of Remain speak out loudly about how we are in a representative democracy and how Parliament must have final word etc.

If, following the GE, the UK population has returned a larger majority for the PM - in the full knowledge that she is entering into the negotiations and seeking a stronger mandate to act robustly - is that not exactly representative democracy in action.

Or are you just selective and that is only what you want when the loading in the commons is in favour of Remain?

 

[Damocles]

But Fumble - I have read posts from you and others who are strong advocates of Remain speak out loudly about how we are in a representative democracy and how Parliament must have final word etc.

If, following the GE, the UK population has returned a larger majority for the PM - in the full knowledge that she is entering into the negotiations and seeking a stronger mandate to act robustly - is that not exactly representative democracy in action.

Or are you just selective and that is only what you want when the loading in the commons is in favour of Remain?

Excellent post.

You either believe in democracy or you don't, in my opinion. You can't just champion it when it suits you.

If the Tories are returned with a 100 seat majority then the will of the British people have spoken and they have their mandate.

 

[stonerblue]

Excellent post.

You either believe in democracy or you don't, in my opinion. You can't just champion it when it suits you.

If the Tories are returned with a 100 seat majority then the will of the British people have spoken and they have their mandate.

Sent from my VF695 using Tapatalk

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

 

[Damocles]

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

 

[urban genie]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

Which is what I keep saying when people are saying the won't vote corbyn, as unless they are his constituents they won't be, they will be voting for their own MP.

Unfortunately it has been framed that way for the last year and half, and the last eelction cameron or milliband then and may or corbyn now.

 

[stonerblue]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

OK, 'them' then.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

And, in a representative democracy, he or she are supposed to represent the people who've voted for them, NOT the narrow self interest of the PARTY. Their mandate, as you describe it, is to serve the interests of the British people. The real question is, unless the manifesto actually says, "we will leave Europe, whatever the cost", if Parliament is sacrosanct and it gets to a point where the risk/benefit balance has slid inexorably towards risk, will those democratically elected MPs have the balls to pull the plug?

 

[Damocles]

And, in a representative democracy, he or she are supposed to represent the people who've voted for them, NOT the narrow self interest of the PARTY. Their mandate, as you describe it, is to serve the interests of the British people. The real question is, unless the manifesto actually says, "we will leave Europe, whatever the cost", if Parliament is sacrosanct and it gets to a point where the risk/benefit balance has slid inexorably towards risk, will those democratically elected MPs have the balls to pull the plug?

Their mandate is to implement their policies that are in their Manifesto.

And we're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU - a trading union.

 

[mcfc1632]

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

The mandate required at the moment is to negotiate the exit from the EU and in so doing to get the best possible deal for the UK. To achieve that it is essential that the EU are facing off against a strong UK team, free to deploy any leverage/strengths that we have. Also that the EU do not have added leverage through seeing the UK continuously discomforted - even hamstrung - by a bunch of distractions at home, largely being undertaken to achieve the EU's preferred outcome of seeing the UK remain within the EU.

There will be no 'good deal' forthcoming if the EU have the luxury of seeing these machinations and can play to them. This especially includes the wrecking amendment that was attempted (dressed up as 'meaningful vote') and Hilary Benn's attempt to bring the same mechanism back through the Brexit Committee. All that would have done is to invite the EU to give us the worst possible deal with them having the sure knowledge that it would be rejected by a pro-EU Parliament and we would never be able (allowed) to leave.

Without this support the EU might just have to 'negotiate' and, instead of continuously laying out their Red Lines etc. have to start considering our positions.

This is little different than the way the EU have ensured that the 27 and all its governance functions are lined up four-square behind their negotiating team. Why is it UK citizens speak admiringly about the robustness of the EU position and lap up all their bold statements about just what we must and must not do, whilst at the same time are happy to rubbish and in some cases actively undermine, the UK's.

With regard your desire to have a look ta the details, there will be a number of opportunities. The PM has committed to give a vote on the final deal - and rightly this must be a take it or leave it vote. Given that we all know this will take years - if we do come out and you do not like it - then I am sure that either or both of the LibDems and Labour will be campaigning on a ticket to take us back into the EU and you can vote accordingly - that would be the vote on the deal - so you cannot claim that there will not be the opportunity.

You can be sure that the EU will leave the door open for re-entry in 2022, indeed having expected to win in 2016 and then throughout 2016 to 2017 though the actions of their sycophants, the EU who have been very good at playing the 'long-game' for decades, will most likely see 2022 as their final opportunity and plan accordingly. I can see them pushing to get some arrangements in place that secure our money until then whilst not giving materially on their core principles and then planning to offer 'time-bound opt outs' on all areas deemed key to the UK, e.g. immigration controls. This might see a resurgent Labour win on a re-joining, ticket or a LibLab pact supported by the EU promises. Of course the 'time-bound opt-outs' will expire and we will be back on the full integration journey.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Their mandate is to implement their policies that are in their Manifesto.

And we're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU - a trading union.

An MP's commitment is to represent their electorate not to implement the Government's manifesto. Also,manifesto commitments frequently change, often through the course of events. At least, during the most important two years of negotiating future terms the prime minister hasn't put the entire process on hold for ten weeks, for shameless self interest!