Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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Len Rum said:
Oh alright then, about £0.3 bn each.
I'm a bit of an old money man myself. Five bob was maybe a bit of an understatement, probably more like a tenner!
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In the anticipation that you may re-join the debate - shall I point you to lots of the material that clearly demonstrates that the EU - including Germany within the EU - are seriously impacted by the loss of access to our cash. This is not about 2/6 pence or £8bn - it is a major problem

There is a lot of evidence out there if you just choose to look and take you fingers out of your ears - or I guess hands off your eyes works better on the internet:

Just as a taster - the words of an expert attending a session called by the Committee on the Affairs of the European Union of the Deutsche Bundestag - so shall we agree not UK biased??.

"...................To my surprise, most of the experts nominated by the other parties did not stress macroeconomic effects for Britain such as employment, economic output and exports. Rather, their concerns focused on Brexit’s impact on the EU budget, and the potential harm to the German economy (Germany is Britain’s largest source of imports and enjoys a substantial trade surplus on UK trade). The UK gross contribution to the EU budget in 2015 was €18.2 billion or about 12% of the total, though the net contribution (once you remove payments Britain receives from the EU) was about 8%.

How to cover this revenue shortfall presents a major political problem to member states and especially the German government (the largest net contributor).................."

Now - that article goes on to be clear on the impact to the EU should they lose access to our cash - not just 'percentages of trade'

There is lots - lots more
 
mcfc1632 said:
Fuck me you are getting fumblesque recently

One-liner quips that do not say anything other than moan - you are better than that Len - well at least I gave/give you more credit.

Your one-liner there is meaningless unless there remains the opportunity for the decision to leave the UK to be reversed

Given that seems not only highly unlikely but that leaving seems to be what an increasing majority of the population wants - there comes a time when you need to be able to 'get over it' and discuss what happens during the negotiations and following our having exited - i.e. the subject that this thread is about.

There may be some not able to do that and will still be like the Japanese soldiers - fighting the war years after, but surely you do not want to be in that sad camp?

My post was showing clear evidence that this myth of EU Unity is - well a myth - I am seeing quite a few examples. That is actually important to the future well-being of the UK and worthy of discussion.

There are some of the more limited posters that declare that they have not the capability to read / absorb / debate - but you used to be able to. What has gone wrong - perhaps it is a realisation that the pre 23/06 fight is now finally lost? Buck up mate and re-join the debate
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What it is mate I'm hacked off with discussing 'no deal' scenarios because despite the bullshit I still have some faith that the UK and the EU will not go down a mutually destructive path where there are no winners only losers . You can argue who loses the most and yes that could affect the dynamics of the negotiations, but ultimately I still think there will be a compromise deal where both sides will be able to claim 'success '.
 
stonerblue said:
Good work Dave
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Thanks Stoner.

I've been reading about this for most of the morning and it really is scary stuff. Democracy is being manipulated by a few billionaires and the laws of the western democracy's are unable to deal with it. Furthermore, those in power are unlikely to have the motivation to shape new laws to meet the threat head on as chickens don't generally vote for Xmas.

Follow https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla

to keep updated.
 
dave_blue12 said:
Thanks Stoner.

I've been reading about this for most of the morning and it really is scary stuff. Democracy is being manipulated by a few billionaires and the laws of the western democracy's are unable to deal with it. Furthermore, those in power are unlikely to have the motivation to shape new laws to meet the threat head on as chickens don't generally vote for Xmas.

Follow https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla

to keep updated.
Click to expand...

Been following this story since it first broke a few weeks ago. Since then it's just got murkier and more disturbing. Makes the lies on the side of a bus seem like school boy stuff
 
I trust the guardian as much as I trust the daily mail, both are echo chambers for a political view and read as nonsense to any reader who isn't partizan and balanced in their political views. This Carole Cadwalladr bangs the drum and writes " The right is rewriting history on the web.We must seize back control". It's absolute nonsense IMHO.
 
mcfc1632 said:
In the anticipation that you may re-join the debate - shall I point you to lots of the material that clearly demonstrates that the EU - including Germany within the EU - are seriously impacted by the loss of access to our cash. This is not about 2/6 pence or £8bn - it is a major problem

There is a lot of evidence out there if you just choose to look and take you fingers out of your ears - or I guess hands off your eyes works better on the internet:

Just as a taster - the words of an expert attending a session called by the Committee on the Affairs of the European Union of the Deutsche Bundestag - so shall we agree not UK biased??.

"...................To my surprise, most of the experts nominated by the other parties did not stress macroeconomic effects for Britain such as employment, economic output and exports. Rather, their concerns focused on Brexit’s impact on the EU budget, and the potential harm to the German economy (Germany is Britain’s largest source of imports and enjoys a substantial trade surplus on UK trade). The UK gross contribution to the EU budget in 2015 was €18.2 billion or about 12% of the total, though the net contribution (once you remove payments Britain receives from the EU) was about 8%.

How to cover this revenue shortfall presents a major political problem to member states and especially the German government (the largest net contributor).................."

Now - that article goes on to be clear on the impact to the EU should they lose access to our cash - not just 'percentages of trade'

There is lots - lots more
Click to expand...



They have no intention of losing access to our 'cash'.....looks like we'll be selling off the London Stock Exchange to either the germans or the Americans.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...f-london-stock-exchange-is-about-to-get-nasty
 
stonerblue said:
Been following this story since it first broke a few weeks ago. Since then it's just got murkier and more disturbing. Makes the lies on the side of a bus seem like school boy stuff
Click to expand...

Agree about the bus lies but it's the wider implications that concern me.

Yes I voted Remain and no I'm not happy that the democratic process has clearly been interfered with but going forward, if this is allowed to go on, all and any democratic votes are fair game.

Big brother will truly be running the world and the little people (us) will have no idea it's happening.
 
Len Rum said:
Oh alright then, about £0.3 bn each.
I'm a bit of an old money man myself. Five bob was maybe a bit of an understatement, probably more like a tenner!
Click to expand...
No worries mate,was only joking anyway..(Five bob is that 2 half a crowns)?
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
I trust the guardian as much as I trust the daily mail, both are echo chambers for a political view and read as nonsense to any reader who isn't partizan and balanced in their political views. This Carole Cadwalladr bangs the drum and writes " The right is rewriting history on the web.We must seize back control". It's absolute nonsense IMHO.
Click to expand...

Try actually reading all the reports. These people who you dismiss are possibly some of the few truly investigative journalists we have left.

The following para is from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...voter-manipulation-eu-referendum-social-media

It is happening and will continue to happen. We ignore it at our peril.

When interviewed by Cadwalladr, Leave.EU’s communications director admitted Facebook was the key to the entire campaign. A Facebook “like” was their most potent weapon. “Using artificial intelligence, as we did, tells you all sorts of things about that individual and how to convince them with what sort of advert. And you knew there would also be other people in their network who liked what they liked, so you could spread. And then you follow them. The computer never stops learning and it never stops monitoring.”
 
dave_blue12 said:
Agree about the bus lies but it's the wider implications that concern me.

Yes I voted Remain and no I'm not happy that the democratic process has clearly been interfered with but going forward, if this is allowed to go on, all and any democratic votes are fair game.

Big brother will truly be running the world and the little people (us) will have no idea it's happening.
Click to expand...

Yep. Whichever way you voted it has to be a concern.
 
dave_blue12 said:
Try actually reading all the reports. These people who you dismiss are possibly some of the few truly investigative journalists we have left.

The following para is from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...voter-manipulation-eu-referendum-social-media

It is happening and will continue to happen. We ignore it at our peril.

When interviewed by Cadwalladr, Leave.EU’s communications director admitted Facebook was the key to the entire campaign. A Facebook “like” was their most potent weapon. “Using artificial intelligence, as we did, tells you all sorts of things about that individual and how to convince them with what sort of advert. And you knew there would also be other people in their network who liked what they liked, so you could spread. And then you follow them. The computer never stops learning and it never stops monitoring.”
Click to expand...

I wouldn't waste my time reading a writer that constantly bangs on about taking power back from the right wing. Like other remainers all she seems to suggest is that people who voted to leave were duped and the enlightened intelligentsia voted to remain.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
I wouldn't waste my time reading a writer that constantly bangs on about taking power back from the right wing. Like other remainers all she seems to suggest is that people who voted to leave were duped and the enlightened intelligentsia voted to remain.
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This isn't about leave/remain ffs !

How do you know what she is suggesting if you don't read the articles !

No-one is suggesting that everyone who voted leave was manipulated but that there was a concerted psycho campaign conducted against the persuadable. The proof is there for all to see.

There has clearly been voter manipulation on a subliminal level. If you're okay with that then it saddens me. We may have completely different political beliefs or we may be closer than we think but this is an assault on democracy by people who care only for their own egos.

For that reason everyone should be taking this very seriously.
 
dave_blue12 said:
This isn't about leave/remain ffs !

How do you know what she is suggesting if you don't read the articles !

No-one is suggesting that everyone who voted leave was manipulated but that there was a concerted psycho campaign conducted against the persuadable. The proof is there for all to see.

There has clearly been voter manipulation on a subliminal level. If you're okay with that then it saddens me. We may have completely different political beliefs or we may be closer than we think but this is an assault on democracy by people who care only for their own egos.

For that reason everyone should be taking this very seriously.
Click to expand...

I read enough to see that it IS about the Brexit vote and it IS more bemoaning from the left pointing at the nasty right. I do not subscribe to the view that people who vote a certain way have been manipulated and that people who voted another way have the wherewithal to decipher lies.

People mention the bus a lot, but do people constantly go on about the punishment budget or Obama coming over telling us to get to the back of the queue?
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
I read enough to see that it IS about the Brexit vote and it IS more bemoaning from the left pointing at the nasty right. I do not subscribe to the view that people who vote a certain way have been manipulated and that people who voted another way have the wherewithal to decipher lies.

People mention the bus a lot, but do people constantly go on about the punishment budget or Obama coming over telling us to get to the back of the queue?
Click to expand...

I also do not believe that everyone that voted in a certain way was manipulated.

What I do believe, and there is a lot of evidence to back up the belief, is that certain people were identified as persuadable and then bombarded with messages to sway them in a certain direction without them ever being aware of what was going on.

The problem with all this is that if we are on social media (and I am) then we are all potential targets.

I don't care about the politics of the journalists or what football team they support. I care about democracy.

This is not about Brexit. This is about democracy !
 
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