fathellensbellend
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 30 Jul 2005
- Messages
- 4,311
First 2 aways I have witnessed people in the away end who clearly dont have a loyalty point between them
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Away tickets and points?
- Thread starter RACHACE
- Start date
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
While UEFA are waffling on and dragging out the draw, I've got time to respond. Some of what I'm going to say reflects the club's view and some (probably the majority) my own personal view.
As I said, it was the club's initiative to end points for buying away tickets and there's a theme here, which I'll touch on later. The club have been coy about how they monitor these things but they do, and they reckoned that 25-30% of the tickets for away games were being used by someone other than the person who bought them. A large part of that was due to the points system, which rewarded buying tickets rather than using them, and also generated a fear of falling behind from those high up on the ladder.
People complaining about having decent points totals and not being able to get tickets were being screwed by this system. There was no way anyone could legitimately catch up. We readily agreed to end the system of giving away points and to introduce a limited system of collecting tickets at the venue. We know from the process the club put in place for CL games (which was nothing to do with CM) that collection had a significant impact on the level at which tickets sold out. So there was clearly a lot of tickets being passed on. Unfortunately the club fucked it up, particularly v Celtic, but it worked. Digital tickets for away games may be the answer, as movement of these can be easily tracked. Just to be clear, there's always going to be circumstances where people need to get rid of tickets they can't use for various reasons - illness, work, family issues, etc. We've been emphasising to the club that the mechanism for doing this has to be as easy as handing your card over, but without the risk that you might not see the card again!
As for the distribution of available tickets, if I was implementing a new system, I certainly wouldn't use the one we currently have. However, I don't accept that tickets should only go to general admission season card holders, based on loyalty points. That just creates a closed shop.
The OSC allocation is a hangover from the days where (a) we weren't as good as we are now and (b) it was easier to distribute 50 tickets to a branch and get the money for those, in the days prior to the internet. I don't personally have a problem with the OSC allocation as it enables fans who might not have the points, including overseas fans, to get to occasional away games. People are talking about a limited allocation going into a ballot and the OSC allocation performs a similar function. If I was putting in place a new system, I'd probably keep an OSC allocation of some sort.
I know there's lot of criticism of the Hospitality allocation but these are usually for season card holders who may be just as loyal as other, general admission, season card holders. I know quite a few in hospitality who have been watching us regularly for many years. It's not just faceless corporates. In that new system I'd implement, I'd also look at extending any points system to Hospitality season card holders where possible. It's more problematic where seasonal hospitality customers are companies rather than individuals but not insoluble.
Another thing I'd do if I was introducing a new system is just allocate points on a rolling basis, rather than lifetime, say 5 years maximum. All the other top clubs, bar united, do this. We've talked the club about this and looked a little at the impact that would have on the top points holders. Personally, I'd achieve tis by taking out the earliest 4 or 5 years of points every year for the next 4 or 5 years, until we're down to only the last 5 years which we can then do on a proper rolling basis. That would help people catching up but I'd never want to disadvantage those fans who do go to all or 90% of games.
I think it's wrong to talk about points equalling 'loyalty'. Obviously they reflect attendance over the years to a large degree but my view is that why should someone who might have been a regular for 15 years, then maybe stopped going to most away games, be higher on the ladder than someone who has gone regularly more recently? Or why should someone who's paid £50 for Platinum be classed as more 'loyal' than someone who's been to the same games but not paid that extra? I stopped Platinum when my lad moved to the USA, as a protest against increasing prices and I was working away from home a lot, but I worked out I'd have around 22k points now if I'd carried it on. That wouldn't make me any more loyal though (although I'd have got to more games than I have on Gold).
What we have been talking to the club about is giving points for attendance, including at home games, rather than simply for buying a ticket, then not using it. That would make sure that the people who did turn up on a cold, wet Wednesday night for games against relegation fodder, or early round cup games against lower league opposition, were the ones rewarded. I know that would impact the people who can't make the midweek games because of distance but there should also be incentives for putting your ticket on the exchange, or passing it on to another person. That way, we should minimise the problem of tickets being sold but large numbers of empty seats.
And finally, to answer the points about obvious tourists at away games, you don't know where they've got their tickets from. It might be from the club allocation, an overseas OSC branch, or via a ticket that someone entitled to it has sold to them or a third-party resale site. If you do see people like that, either ask them or pass on their seat numbers to my successor so they can have it investigated. Or you could just accept that a few tickets will inevitably slip through the net.
As I said, it was the club's initiative to end points for buying away tickets and there's a theme here, which I'll touch on later. The club have been coy about how they monitor these things but they do, and they reckoned that 25-30% of the tickets for away games were being used by someone other than the person who bought them. A large part of that was due to the points system, which rewarded buying tickets rather than using them, and also generated a fear of falling behind from those high up on the ladder.
People complaining about having decent points totals and not being able to get tickets were being screwed by this system. There was no way anyone could legitimately catch up. We readily agreed to end the system of giving away points and to introduce a limited system of collecting tickets at the venue. We know from the process the club put in place for CL games (which was nothing to do with CM) that collection had a significant impact on the level at which tickets sold out. So there was clearly a lot of tickets being passed on. Unfortunately the club fucked it up, particularly v Celtic, but it worked. Digital tickets for away games may be the answer, as movement of these can be easily tracked. Just to be clear, there's always going to be circumstances where people need to get rid of tickets they can't use for various reasons - illness, work, family issues, etc. We've been emphasising to the club that the mechanism for doing this has to be as easy as handing your card over, but without the risk that you might not see the card again!
As for the distribution of available tickets, if I was implementing a new system, I certainly wouldn't use the one we currently have. However, I don't accept that tickets should only go to general admission season card holders, based on loyalty points. That just creates a closed shop.
The OSC allocation is a hangover from the days where (a) we weren't as good as we are now and (b) it was easier to distribute 50 tickets to a branch and get the money for those, in the days prior to the internet. I don't personally have a problem with the OSC allocation as it enables fans who might not have the points, including overseas fans, to get to occasional away games. People are talking about a limited allocation going into a ballot and the OSC allocation performs a similar function. If I was putting in place a new system, I'd probably keep an OSC allocation of some sort.
I know there's lot of criticism of the Hospitality allocation but these are usually for season card holders who may be just as loyal as other, general admission, season card holders. I know quite a few in hospitality who have been watching us regularly for many years. It's not just faceless corporates. In that new system I'd implement, I'd also look at extending any points system to Hospitality season card holders where possible. It's more problematic where seasonal hospitality customers are companies rather than individuals but not insoluble.
Another thing I'd do if I was introducing a new system is just allocate points on a rolling basis, rather than lifetime, say 5 years maximum. All the other top clubs, bar united, do this. We've talked the club about this and looked a little at the impact that would have on the top points holders. Personally, I'd achieve tis by taking out the earliest 4 or 5 years of points every year for the next 4 or 5 years, until we're down to only the last 5 years which we can then do on a proper rolling basis. That would help people catching up but I'd never want to disadvantage those fans who do go to all or 90% of games.
I think it's wrong to talk about points equalling 'loyalty'. Obviously they reflect attendance over the years to a large degree but my view is that why should someone who might have been a regular for 15 years, then maybe stopped going to most away games, be higher on the ladder than someone who has gone regularly more recently? Or why should someone who's paid £50 for Platinum be classed as more 'loyal' than someone who's been to the same games but not paid that extra? I stopped Platinum when my lad moved to the USA, as a protest against increasing prices and I was working away from home a lot, but I worked out I'd have around 22k points now if I'd carried it on. That wouldn't make me any more loyal though (although I'd have got to more games than I have on Gold).
What we have been talking to the club about is giving points for attendance, including at home games, rather than simply for buying a ticket, then not using it. That would make sure that the people who did turn up on a cold, wet Wednesday night for games against relegation fodder, or early round cup games against lower league opposition, were the ones rewarded. I know that would impact the people who can't make the midweek games because of distance but there should also be incentives for putting your ticket on the exchange, or passing it on to another person. That way, we should minimise the problem of tickets being sold but large numbers of empty seats.
And finally, to answer the points about obvious tourists at away games, you don't know where they've got their tickets from. It might be from the club allocation, an overseas OSC branch, or via a ticket that someone entitled to it has sold to them or a third-party resale site. If you do see people like that, either ask them or pass on their seat numbers to my successor so they can have it investigated. Or you could just accept that a few tickets will inevitably slip through the net.
LongsightM13
Well-Known Member
I would love to see an actual breakdown of the percentages allocated to each group for every away game - supporter points, SCs, hospitality, players and staff etc
City don’t seem keen to share that info, probably because it would cause ructions
City don’t seem keen to share that info, probably because it would cause ructions
Platinum was one of the worse things the brought out and it started showing the club start thinking of us as customers playing more doesn't make people more loyal I've got 19k points but on gold so my aways have been dropping now season by season its just the way its going part of part of being the best team though
RACHACE
Well-Known Member
I'm glad that the club actually monitors it and has an awareness. It puts to bed any feeling of them not giving a toss about supporters thoughts on the topic.While UEFA are waffling on and dragging out the draw, I've got time to respond. Some of what I'm going to say reflects the club's view and some (probably the majority) my own personal view.
As I said, it was the club's initiative to end points for buying away tickets and there's a theme here, which I'll touch on later. The club have been coy about how they monitor these things but they do, and they reckoned that 25-30% of the tickets for away games were being used by someone other than the person who bought them. A large part of that was due to the points system, which rewarded buying tickets rather than using them, and also generated a fear of falling behind from those high up on the ladder.
People complaining about having decent points totals and not being able to get tickets were being screwed by this system. There was no way anyone could legitimately catch up. We readily agreed to end the system of giving away points and to introduce a limited system of collecting tickets at the venue. We know from the process the club put in place for CL games (which was nothing to do with CM) that collection had a significant impact on the level at which tickets sold out. So there was clearly a lot of tickets being passed on. Unfortunately the club fucked it up, particularly v Celtic, but it worked. Digital tickets for away games may be the answer, as movement of these can be easily tracked. Just to be clear, there's always going to be circumstances where people need to get rid of tickets they can't use for various reasons - illness, work, family issues, etc. We've been emphasising to the club that the mechanism for doing this has to be as easy as handing your card over, but without the risk that you might not see the card again!
As for the distribution of available tickets, if I was implementing a new system, I certainly wouldn't use the one we currently have. However, I don't accept that tickets should only go to general admission season card holders, based on loyalty points. That just creates a closed shop.
The OSC allocation is a hangover from the days where (a) we weren't as good as we are now and (b) it was easier to distribute 50 tickets to a branch and get the money for those, in the days prior to the internet. I don't personally have a problem with the OSC allocation as it enables fans who might not have the points, including overseas fans, to get to occasional away games. People are talking about a limited allocation going into a ballot and the OSC allocation performs a similar function. If I was putting in place a new system, I'd probably keep an OSC allocation of some sort.
I know there's lot of criticism of the Hospitality allocation but these are usually for season card holders who may be just as loyal as other, general admission, season card holders. I know quite a few in hospitality who have been watching us regularly for many years. It's not just faceless corporates. In that new system I'd implement, I'd also look at extending any points system to Hospitality season card holders where possible. It's more problematic where seasonal hospitality customers are companies rather than individuals but not insoluble.
Another thing I'd do if I was introducing a new system is just allocate points on a rolling basis, rather than lifetime, say 5 years maximum. All the other top clubs, bar united, do this. We've talked the club about this and looked a little at the impact that would have on the top points holders. Personally, I'd achieve tis by taking out the earliest 4 or 5 years of points every year for the next 4 or 5 years, until we're down to only the last 5 years which we can then do on a proper rolling basis. That would help people catching up but I'd never want to disadvantage those fans who do go to all or 90% of games.
I think it's wrong to talk about points equalling 'loyalty'. Obviously they reflect attendance over the years to a large degree but my view is that why should someone who might have been a regular for 15 years, then maybe stopped going to most away games, be higher on the ladder than someone who has gone regularly more recently? Or why should someone who's paid £50 for Platinum be classed as more 'loyal' than someone who's been to the same games but not paid that extra? I stopped Platinum when my lad moved to the USA, as a protest against increasing prices and I was working away from home a lot, but I worked out I'd have around 22k points now if I'd carried it on. That wouldn't make me any more loyal though (although I'd have got to more games than I have on Gold).
What we have been talking to the club about is giving points for attendance, including at home games, rather than simply for buying a ticket, then not using it. That would make sure that the people who did turn up on a cold, wet Wednesday night for games against relegation fodder, or early round cup games against lower league opposition, were the ones rewarded. I know that would impact the people who can't make the midweek games because of distance but there should also be incentives for putting your ticket on the exchange, or passing it on to another person. That way, we should minimise the problem of tickets being sold but large numbers of empty seats.
And finally, to answer the points about obvious tourists at away games, you don't know where they've got their tickets from. It might be from the club allocation, an overseas OSC branch, or via a ticket that someone entitled to it has sold to them or a third-party resale site. If you do see people like that, either ask them or pass on their seat numbers to my successor so they can have it investigated. Or you could just accept that a few tickets will inevitably slip through the net.
Hopefully City will get a fair system in place that's strikes the right balance sometime in the near future.
aurorables
Active Member
- Joined
- 2 Feb 2022
- Messages
- 41
- Team supported
- Manchester City
As a 21 yo, I have been able to get tickets to Com Shield, West Ham, Villa, and Wolves so far this season all down to the 18-25 allo. I am on all cup schemes and attended every home game last season bar Wycombe and Brighton, yet when I hit 25, I will have approximately 6k points, and 0 chance to ever have an away game again on this current system. The system is broken and literally makes 0 sense towards younger fans, if tickets sell out at 18k now, in 5 years they will sell out at 20k, its like chasing something you will never be able to catch. I get that I only have a small amount of points compared to people in the lower teens who still don't get a sniff, but it needs resolving because people who attend every away match in a season at 25 years old, the following year will be able to attend 0, and that doesn't make any sense to me.
I don’t understand how people get over 20,000 points…
I’m a cityzen member, never been a season card holder. Go to about 8-10 home games across all comps and get to 3-4 away games through a supporters club. That’s been the case since I was 16 I have 1030 points. I know I’m not going to get much more as I’m not a seasoncard holder.
Now, I’m 33, if I got a platinum season ticket for next season (380 points) and did to at for 20 years… by the time I’m 53 I would only have 8000 points (with a few cup games chucked in.
I know you used to get away points but how do people have over 25,000/30,000 points!?
Cheers
I’m a cityzen member, never been a season card holder. Go to about 8-10 home games across all comps and get to 3-4 away games through a supporters club. That’s been the case since I was 16 I have 1030 points. I know I’m not going to get much more as I’m not a seasoncard holder.
Now, I’m 33, if I got a platinum season ticket for next season (380 points) and did to at for 20 years… by the time I’m 53 I would only have 8000 points (with a few cup games chucked in.
I know you used to get away points but how do people have over 25,000/30,000 points!?
Cheers
By going to approx 90% of all home and away games since the system came in and long long beforeI don’t understand how people get over 20,000 points…
I’m a cityzen member, never been a season card holder. Go to about 8-10 home games across all comps and get to 3-4 away games through a supporters club. That’s been the case since I was 16 I have 1030 points. I know I’m not going to get much more as I’m not a seasoncard holder.
Now, I’m 33, if I got a platinum season ticket for next season (380 points) and did to at for 20 years… by the time I’m 53 I would only have 8000 points (with a few cup games chucked in.
I know you used to get away points but how do people have over 25,000/30,000 points!?
Cheers
Swanseas Newcastle Sunderland Oxford trips on a Wed night
Travelling all over Europe
Paying £50 for platinum every season
Being a season ticket holder at Maine Road initial since 1985 although meant very little apart from 1000 points when we moved
Joining the cup schemes since they were introduced
No I’m not part of an OSC
I could go on as could many others on here
WesthoughtonJohn
Well-Known Member
Why do you think "fully digital" will make a difference, just wondering??Fully digital tickets over next few seasons will free up a lot of tickets.
That and cost of living increase in short term.
Cost of living, based on our demographic for away games, isn't likely to make much difference IMHO - it's long term supporters so over 50, and youngsters who still live at home.
Alfie Budd
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 19 Jun 2021
- Messages
- 1,389
- Team supported
- Manchester City
I don't know exactly how the technology might work but digital tickets for away games could be set up to be non-transferable. Then someone who has no intention of going can't buy one to sell it on. Someone who's bought a ticket but then has a change of plans could sell it back to the club for face value minus a nominal service charge giving someone else who otherwise wouldn't have a ticket the chance to go.Why do you think "fully digital" will make a difference, just wondering??
Cost of living, based on our demographic for away games, isn't likely to make much difference IMHO - it's long term supporters so over 50, and youngsters who still live at home.