Back On The Chain Gang

Fode N The Hole said:
Why not?
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Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
 
Marklr said:
Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
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Yeah but didn't you say anything about Norwegian crime culture in that comment.

Is this a world away from Manchester drug gangs fighting turf wars?

Nordic Biker War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Marklr said:
Yeah, it's nothing like it. Norway is not like ANY other country!! It's not even HALF the crime rate of Sweden!
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You said culture not crime rate. Norway is a much more equal society so naturally there is less crime. But there is also less crime because their prison system discourages recidivism.
 
Marklr said:
Why can't we compare Norway to the UK when it comes to crime and punishment? Just look at the difference in crime culture, drug culture, gang culture and so on.
I know young lads around here that don't mind going back to prison...or rather, the punishment is worth the risk of the crime to them.
Click to expand...
we cant compare Norway to the UK because they have taken an enlightened and forward thinking view of their societal values and implemented policies which have reduced crime. We haven't, our entire system encourages re-offending. We might look at what they have done on this and homelessness and actually learn something rather than shout 'lock em up' very loudly.
 
Marklr said:
Hard Labour. Prison should by like military. Up at 7 for a run around the block. Then some good hard work for the day. Make them hate it so much they never want to go back. But educate them too.
Young lads get to like prison as they have a sense of belonging and comradeship there.
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And hard labour, up at 7 etc will reinforce that sense of belonging. Them against society, you are in effect creating an army, with its own rules and values which will be alien to the rest of society.

If you want people to respect our society, you need to give them a stake in that society not create a parallel society with its own value system.

We lock up too many people, elsewhere in Europe they do the opposite and it works. Trouble is we don’t want it to work. We just want to punish and make them suffer and no matter how many times we get told it won’t work we will just scream and rant and demand tougher and harsher conditions because it makes us feel better. It’s an emotional based system, not a rational one.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
we cant compare Norway to the UK because they have taken an enlightened and forward thinking view of their societal values and implemented policies which have reduced crime. We haven't, our entire system encourages re-offending. We might look at what they have done on this and homelessness and actually learn something rather than shout 'lock em up' very loudly.
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I agree that the justice system isn't working.. and I agree that not all should just be locked up. Still, you can't compare the crime culture of Norway to the UK...what might work in one country, doesn't necessarily work for another.
When we do all the talking and debating it will still come down to the same issue...lack government money.
 
BobKowalski said:
And hard labour, up at 7 etc will reinforce that sense of belonging. Them against society, you are in effect creating an army, with its own rules and values which will be alien to the rest of society.

If you want people to respect our society, you need to give them a stake in that society not create a parallel society with its own value system.

We lock up too many people, elsewhere in Europe they do the opposite and it works. Trouble is we don’t want it to work. We just want to punish and make them suffer and no matter how many times we get told it won’t work we will just scream and rant and demand tougher and harsher conditions because it makes us feel better. It’s an emotional based system, not a rational one.
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I did say that prison should be so they DON'T WANT to go back. The military way and up at 7 is just an idea. The way it is isn't working as many lads don't care if they get sent back.
 
Marklr said:
I agree that the justice system isn't working.. and I agree that not all should just be locked up. Still, you can't compare the crime culture of Norway to the UK...what might work in one country, doesn't necessarily work for another.
When we do all the talking and debating it will still come down to the same issue...lack government money.
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Its not really about lack of government (our taxes) money. Its far more about the priorities and values that drive the spending.

If our society is producing the crime rate that it is, is that the fault of the individual criminals or of the society which produces them? Are prisons for punishment or rehabilitation? I agree that you cant compare Norway to the UK. Our societal values are very different. Norway believes that criminals can be rehabilitated, the homeless can be rehoused and that it is better to spend tax money on initiatives that support those objectives. There is much less social inequality in Norway than the UK and they are regularly towards the top of the various wellbeing indices.

We have a government that are exacerbating social inequality in the UK our crime rate will continue to be a real issue, as will child poverty, homelessness, and all the other societal ills than impact us.These problems are addressed by red meat politics and a right wing press. '
Criminals? Bang em up and throw away the key'
'Immigrants? Send em back to where they came'
'the homeless? Get em off our streets to anywhere we cant see them'
'Food poverty? set up more food banks and get em to queue.

Time to fundamentally reset our values I think.
 
Marklr said:
I did say that prison should be so they DON'T WANT to go back. The military way and up at 7 is just an idea. The way it is isn't working as many lads don't care if they get sent back.
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Okay, so you would support the Netherlands approach where prisons have been closed or Germany where the goal is rehabilitation ‘...many German prisons have the feel of a community, prisoners are given different freedoms and responsibilities. Often, prisoners have television, posters hanging in their cells, or free time to do as they wish’

The Mail would have a fit, Middle England would be outraged and there would be endless threads on here about prisoners having it cushy.

The UK does not want a prison system that works. They want a prison system that fails miserably but makes people feel better.
 
BobKowalski said:
And hard labour, up at 7 etc will reinforce that sense of belonging. Them against society, you are in effect creating an army, with its own rules and values which will be alien to the rest of society.

If you want people to respect our society, you need to give them a stake in that society not create a parallel society with its own value system.

We lock up too many people, elsewhere in Europe they do the opposite and it works. Trouble is we don’t want it to work. We just want to punish and make them suffer and no matter how many times we get told it won’t work we will just scream and rant and demand tougher and harsher conditions because it makes us feel better. It’s an emotional based system, not a rational one.
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Is it emotional or are our current societal values easier for those that are pulling the strings to make more and more money?
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Is it emotional or are our current societal values easier for those that are pulling the strings to make more and more money?
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You will always make more money appealing to emotion than reason. Farage is an excellent example of the emotional grifter.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Its not really about lack of government (our taxes) money. Its far more about the priorities and values that drive the spending.

If our society is producing the crime rate that it is, is that the fault of the individual criminals or of the society which produces them? Are prisons for punishment or rehabilitation? I agree that you cant compare Norway to the UK. Our societal values are very different. Norway believes that criminals can be rehabilitated, the homeless can be rehoused and that it is better to spend tax money on initiatives that support those objectives. There is much less social inequality in Norway than the UK and they are regularly towards the top of the various wellbeing indices.

We have a government that are exacerbating social inequality in the UK our crime rate will continue to be a real issue, as will child poverty, homelessness, and all the other societal ills than impact us.These problems are addressed by red meat politics and a right wing press. '
Criminals? Bang em up and throw away the key'
'Immigrants? Send em back to where they came'
'the homeless? Get em off our streets to anywhere we cant see them'
'Food poverty? set up more food banks and get em to queue.

Time to fundamentally reset our values I think.
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It might be social injustices that have lead to our current crime culture...but it's not exclusive. Kids brought up in some areas see crime culture as NORMAL. It's a way of life for some people that AREN'T poverty stricken. That's something that has been growing for many years and will be a tough issue to change.
I WISH we had the Scandinavian life!
 
Marklr said:
It might be social injustices that have lead to our current crime culture...but it's not exclusive. Kids brought up in some areas see crime culture as NORMAL. It's a way of life for some people that AREN'T poverty stricken. That's something that has been growing for many years and will be a tough issue to change.
I WISH we had the Scandinavian life!
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Me too mate. No chance until we take a good hard look at ourselves and demand better bloody politics and politicians That will implement policies that support a descent and fair society.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Me too mate. No chance until we take a good hard look at ourselves and demand better bloody politics and politicians That will implement policies that support a descent and fair society.
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We're too densely populated. It's easier to manage problems in Scandinavian countries than the more heavily populated European countries, i suppose.
 
Marklr said:
We're too densely populated. It's easier to manage problems in Scandinavian countries than the more heavily populated European countries, i suppose.
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More difficult but not impossible. At present we don’t even try. The Scottish government have some reasonable policies but let’s see how many are implemented.
 
Marklr said:
We're too densely populated. It's easier to manage problems in Scandinavian countries than the more heavily populated European countries, i suppose.
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Netherlands has twice our population density. Last time I checked it has closed over twenty prisons due to lack of use.

There is a different way. It’s just that we are unable to discuss it.
 
Two Gun Bob said:
Is that what it would do, bring total collapse of the capitalist system simply by paying a living wage. It smacks in the face of common decency by underpaying a workforce in order to massage the books. Again I have no idea why governments insist on adopting this mantra as the cost to the taxpayer via top up benefits must be immense. If you pay a work force a living wage then you would naturally increase output and quality of workmanship as opposed to lethargy apathy and the dreadfully piss poor service we see before us today.

I don't think the commie Red Under The Bed Brigade or the Marxist Movements have anything to offer otherwise they would have acheived the heady height's of office already. I think it's just reactionary politics from a minority and although it sounds really good to go it just never seems to catch on.

I am not heavily into politics or even profess to have an understanding of the genre at your level so instead I adopt the Mazzerelli Swiss Cheese Mantra by voting for any party that appeals to my own sense of ideal come election time.

Wasn't that young urban guerilla "Wolfie" Smith, from Tooting a Marxist who constantly spent every episode emulating his hero Che Guevara.

9dEuNuQ.jpg
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No ... the collapse of the capitalist system comes when those that produce can no longer afford to purchase the things that they produce. .... we are close to that now. The last throw of the dice for the Capitalists was the credit card (to which many around the world are now indebted








marx was not a communist ...despite what the Tories say.
 
Marklr said:
It might be social injustices that have lead to our current crime culture...but it's not exclusive. Kids brought up in some areas see crime culture as NORMAL. It's a way of life for some people that AREN'T poverty stricken. That's something that has been growing for many years and will be a tough issue to change.
I WISH we had the Scandinavian life!
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You could .... but that would mean voting Labour ....
 
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