Bersant Celina

[Damocles]

The lads on the bench aren't close to being ready for the first team yet. The ones who might be are largely out on loan. It's enough for them to be in the squad, which must be quite an experience for them. Maybe if we'd been a few goals up then he'd have got 15 minutes but we weren't.

Just to spin this round a bit. We were playing a struggling Championship side, who were a League One side a couple of years back, at home and they would have been surrounded by 7 or 8 other world class players. If they aren't ready to play against lower Championship/higher League One sides at home with a huge team of stars around them, where are we going to loan them to?

Devante Cole, who is a far less talented player than people like Ambrose, was at Barnsley who are in that lower Championship/higher League One bracket and he's 19. Emyr Huws last season played for Wigan who are a lower Premier League/upper Championship bracket.

I also disagree that guys like Ambrose, Pozo and Celina - guys who had their pick of every elite academy in the world, are satisfied with just getting on the bench. In fact I'd be worried if that was case. These aren't the Glendons and Barkers who grew up with Steve Lomas on their wall, these are elite players who are here to make a career and will have no problem walking straight into the Barca Academy if they feel they will be better served there just like Roman did and Suarez did. We're almost certainly going to lose Rekik for the same reason - he is a Dutch international who is playing CL/EL football and a starter for PSV. He needed to be integrated into our squad this year and instead we dithered again and everybody can see the writing on the wall that he won't be coming back now. Again, he's a Dutch international defender who is homegrown at our club and we fucked about so much that I'd be shocked if he ever played for us again. Instead Demichelis got a new contract and we brought in Mangala.

And on your "if we were a few goals up they would have gotten time" - we were 3-0 up with 5 minutes to go against Burnley and Pellegrini brought on Scott Sinclair instead of Ambrose.

This really IS an issue with how we are not progressing youth players even if some of our more militant members refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[BigOscar]

The lads on the bench aren't close to being ready for the first team yet. The ones who might be are largely out on loan. It's enough for them to be in the squad, which must be quite an experience for them. Maybe if we'd been a few goals up then he'd have got 15 minutes but we weren't.

Just to spin this round a bit. We were playing a struggling Championship side, who were a League One side a couple of years back, at home and they would have been surrounded by 7 or 8 other world class players. If they aren't ready to play against lower Championship/higher League One sides at home with a huge team of stars around them, where are we going to loan them to?

Devante Cole, who is a far less talented player than people like Ambrose, is at Barnsley who are in that lower Championship/higher League One bracket and he's 19. Emyr Huws last season played for Wigan who are a lower Premier League/upper Championship bracket.

I also disagree that guys like Ambrose, Pozo and Celina - guys who had their pick of every elite academy in the world, are satisfied with just getting on the bench. In fact I'd be worried if that was case. These aren't the Glendons and Barkers who grew up with Steve Lomas on their wall, these are elite players who are here to make a career and will have no problem walking straight into the Barca Academy if they feel they will be better served there just like Roman did and Suarez did. We're almost certainly going to lose Rekik for the same reason - he is a Dutch international who is playing CL/EL football and a starter for PSV. He needed to be integrated into our squad this year and instead we dithered again and everybody can see the writing on the wall that he won't be coming back now. Again, he's a Dutch international defender who is homegrown at our club and we fucked about so much that I'd be shocked if he ever played for us again. Instead Demichelis got a new contract and we brought in Mangala.

And on your "if we were a few goals up they would have gotten time" - we were 3-0 up with 5 minutes to go against Burnley and Pellegrini brought on Scott Sinclair instead of Ambrose.

This really IS an issue with how we are not progressing youth players even if some of our more militant members refuse to acknowledge it.

I think the key difference for me, is that Devante Cole had a year or two of EDS football under his belt already. Celina, Barker, Ambrose and the like are pretty much in their first year at even that level. Barker said in his interview that Paddy is teaching him a lot about his attitude and the like and that can only be good for him in the long term. You don't want to fast track people too quickly, as they miss out on lessons they should be learning, it becomes a lot harder to concentrarte on developing once you're in the first team. I'd hope these lads would be able to get loans for next year, with the ones who've been out on loan this year pushind into the first team squad. Obviously that might not happen, but it's what you'd hope is the plan.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think it would be a huge ask to expect someone to leap from U18's to the first team in a single year, no matter how talented they are. You just have to look at how badly spanked the EDS got by Leicester reserves, who were fielding a fair few first team squad members, they are a very inexperienced bunch, even at U21 level.

 

[Damocles]

One off games happen all the time and it's unfair to judge them on such.

The thing is, I'm not pushing for Ambrose to replace Aguero - I just don't see how the odd first team game then going back to the EDS with the "you can make it here" attitude is anything but a good thing. Our club as a whole would have been better served if Ambrose, Celina, Angelino and Fofana had already made their first team debuts with a 10 minutes here or a 20 minutes there.

Barker is a great example - he like many young footballers had an attitude problem. Imagine seeing his mates coming back from playing with David Silva and Sergio Aguero then Paddy turning round and saying "you'll never get that opportunity unless you work for it". It lights fires under people.

Fofana is another good example, we've put him over at Fulham until the end of the month - a side that will be facing the Sheffield Wednesday's of the world. Does anybody here really, honestly believe that he would have started in front of Lampard if he were here? I mean he's already playing Championship football so he must be good enough to play against a Championship side.

I don't. I don't have any faith that the manager is playing for the long term, I think he knows he has another year left on his contract and will try to win as many trophies in that period and leave youth development to be something that somebody else deals with after he's gone. This is fine from his point of view and from the first team point of view but importantly, that was not what we were told his job is. Youth development IS part of his job.

 

[BigOscar]

I do see your point, but to me it looks like we have a very clear plan in place for the young players. Move up to the EDS, play there for a year, then if you do well move on loan for a year to blood yourselves against men, then the following year try and break into the first team. Obviously only 2/3rds of that has happened so far and I could be disasterously wrong with the last bit, but that looks like what's happening. It can't be a coincidence that all the players who had experience in the EDS seem to have gone out on loan this year and all the lads from the U18's have replaced them. (Rekik is the only one who's gone out for his second year and that might be more because they didn't like what they saw)

I don't think there was ever much of a plan for the likes of Ambrose, Celina or Barker to get all the way to the first team this year, even in the cups, but it's been neccessitated by injuries.

As for the players getting inspired by the other young players getting a chance, although I agree, I think the same effect is had just by them getting called up and being on the bench. You can see on twitter how excited they are for each other when it happens and that would surely have the same effect of inspiring the others to want to push and get there themselves? Obviously that effect will be lost if they keep getting brought up but never played, but it's clearly hugely exciting for the boys to even train with the first team squad at the moment.

I think next year is make or break from a youth perspective. If Lopes, Fofana and Denayer stay with the first team, having got that experience under their belts this year, and get games here and there and a chance to prove themselves, then it shows the path. If they don't, then I agree, we have a real problem. I'm waiting to see what happens next year before commiting to the "we have a problem" side of the arguament. Again though, I'm being optimistic.

 

[Ray78]

I have a simplistic view on this. We should first take the promising youngsters on any pre season tour and give them some game time along with the seniors. If they do catch the managers eye then give them a further opportunity to train with the first along with them still getting match fitness in the reserves. If they continue to impress then they should be included in the League Cup and the FA Cup and then be judged on whether they can fit into the first team and squad. Any player who doesn't quite fit or there are doubts about the youngster should be loaned out and given experience in playing professional football and maybe look out for another club.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I have a simplistic view on this. We should first take the promising youngsters on any pre season tour and give them some game time along with the seniors. If they do catch the managers eye then give them a further opportunity to train with the first along with them still getting match fitness in the reserves. If they continue to impress then they should be included in the League Cup and the FA Cup and then be judged on whether they can fit into the first team and squad. Any player who doesn't quite fit or there are doubts about the youngster should be loaned out and given experience in playing professional football and maybe look out for another club.

We did that to some extent, also post season. Rekik was fucking awful in both, but Denayer showed a lot of promise this pre season although clearly not ready.

The players out on loan aren't the problem. Rekik is miles off City standard but making a career for himself, Guidetti is making a career, & Denayer & Lopes are looking quality.

But some of the creative players we have at the club now, could actually help the squad. That is the point bein missed by Pellegrini imo. It's not doing these kids a favour by playing them in the cup, it's finding out if they are good enough to be important impact players for the first team squad. Imo they have enough ability to potentially come on & turn a match.

I bet if you give Silva, Nasri & Celina 20 free kicks each, Celina scores more of them than the other two put together. Give Miner Navas & Barker 20 runs each to dribble past a fullback & see who is most successful.

These kids have abilities, that some of the first team players don't. They could give us an extra percentage chance of winning stuff, if we start using them.

Variety.

 

[Ray78]

I have a simplistic view on this. We should first take the promising youngsters on any pre season tour and give them some game time along with the seniors. If they do catch the managers eye then give them a further opportunity to train with the first along with them still getting match fitness in the reserves. If they continue to impress then they should be included in the League Cup and the FA Cup and then be judged on whether they can fit into the first team and squad. Any player who doesn't quite fit or there are doubts about the youngster should be loaned out and given experience in playing professional football and maybe look out for another club.

We did that to some extent, also post season. Rekik was fucking awful in both, but Denayer showed a lot of promise this pre season although clearly not ready.

The players out on loan aren't the problem. Rekik is miles off City standard but making a career for himself, Guidetti is making a career, & Denayer & Lopes are looking quality.

But some of the creative players we have at the club now, could actually help the squad. That is the point bein missed by Pellegrini imo. It's not doing these kids a favour by playing them in the cup, it's finding out if they are good enough to be important impact players for the first team squad. Imo they have enough ability to potentially come on & turn a match.

I bet if you give Silva, Nasri & Celina 20 free kicks each, Celina scores more of them than the other two put together. Give Miner Navas & Barker 20 runs each to dribble past a fullback & see who is most successful.

These kids have abilities, that some of the first team players don't. They could give us an extra percentage chance of winning stuff, if we start using them.

Variety.

I agree with your sentiments to a point NK but there has to be a degree of trust between the manager, first teamers and the young players. It is no good if the kid is talented but he isn't taking on board what the first team manager wants from the player. As the kids found out in some of pre season games during the American tour there were occasions where the seniors didn't pass them the ball.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I have a simplistic view on this. We should first take the promising youngsters on any pre season tour and give them some game time along with the seniors. If they do catch the managers eye then give them a further opportunity to train with the first along with them still getting match fitness in the reserves. If they continue to impress then they should be included in the League Cup and the FA Cup and then be judged on whether they can fit into the first team and squad. Any player who doesn't quite fit or there are doubts about the youngster should be loaned out and given experience in playing professional football and maybe look out for another club.

We did that to some extent, also post season. Rekik was fucking awful in both, but Denayer showed a lot of promise this pre season although clearly not ready.

The players out on loan aren't the problem. Rekik is miles off City standard but making a career for himself, Guidetti is making a career, & Denayer & Lopes are looking quality.

But some of the creative players we have at the club now, could actually help the squad. That is the point bein missed by Pellegrini imo. It's not doing these kids a favour by playing them in the cup, it's finding out if they are good enough to be important impact players for the first team squad. Imo they have enough ability to potentially come on & turn a match.

I bet if you give Silva, Nasri & Celina 20 free kicks each, Celina scores more of them than the other two put together. Give Miner Navas & Barker 20 runs each to dribble past a fullback & see who is most successful.

These kids have abilities, that some of the first team players don't. They could give us an extra percentage chance of winning stuff, if we start using them.

Variety.

I agree with your sentiments to a point NK but there has to be a degree of trust between the manager, first teamers and the young players. It is no good if the kid is talented but he isn't taking on board what the first team manager wants from the player. As the kids found out in some of pre season games during the American tour there were occasions where the seniors didn't pass them the ball.

I thought the kids saw plenty of the ball pre season & we got a good idea who looks more likely to figure in the future. All made mistakes but wheras for example Guidetti/Rekik struggled at everything, Denayer, Iheanacho looked full of ability & did some pretty impressive stuff. Greg Leigh/Boyata half & half.

 

[Ray78]

We did that to some extent, also post season. Rekik was fucking awful in both, but Denayer showed a lot of promise this pre season although clearly not ready.

The players out on loan aren't the problem. Rekik is miles off City standard but making a career for himself, Guidetti is making a career, & Denayer & Lopes are looking quality.

But some of the creative players we have at the club now, could actually help the squad. That is the point bein missed by Pellegrini imo. It's not doing these kids a favour by playing them in the cup, it's finding out if they are good enough to be important impact players for the first team squad. Imo they have enough ability to potentially come on & turn a match.

I bet if you give Silva, Nasri & Celina 20 free kicks each, Celina scores more of them than the other two put together. Give Miner Navas & Barker 20 runs each to dribble past a fullback & see who is most successful.

These kids have abilities, that some of the first team players don't. They could give us an extra percentage chance of winning stuff, if we start using them.

Variety.

I agree with your sentiments to a point NK but there has to be a degree of trust between the manager, first teamers and the young players. It is no good if the kid is talented but he isn't taking on board what the first team manager wants from the player. As the kids found out in some of pre season games during the American tour there were occasions where the seniors didn't pass them the ball.

I thought the kids saw plenty of the ball pre season & we got a good idea who looks more likely to figure in the future. All made mistakes but wheras for example Guidetti/Rekik struggled at everything, Denayer, Iheanacho looked full of ability & did some pretty impressive stuff. Greg Leigh/Boyata half & half.

We will get a clearer picture when we head out to Abu Dhabi. There will bound to be a few of our talented EDS lads who will play in the Hamburg friendly.

 

[BigOscar]

Just thought I'd post to say how pleased I was with his 15 minute cameo in Abu Dhabi. He looked conifdent and dynamic and despite his obvious nerves, still tried to play his natural game. Moved assertively into good positions to recieve the ball and I was delighted with the way he drove forwards and bounced the ball off Aguero in the 90+minute to get through on goal. He snatched at the shot, but that's just nerves, you don't mind that as long as they are trying to do the right things.

He looked like he got a bit rattled after getting tackled by someone (possibly a failed nutmeg attempt, hard to tell) and spent the next couple of minutes dropping a bit deeper and out of the way, but he soon shook that off and then kicked on and did better, which is exactly the right attitude to have. A good experience for him and he showed a lot of bottle, I wouldn't be surprised if he makes the bench in the cup again.