Bluemoon labour thread.

[Helmet Cole]

For the first time since I reached voting age I just don't know what the libs stand for and what their policies are. TBH I have made no effort to find out, but surely this close to an election they should be making more noise?

 

[hilts]

For the first time since I reached voting age I just don't know what the libs stand for and what their policies are. TBH I have made no effort to find out, but surely this close to an election they should be making more noise?

they dont get the media coverage of labour and the tories, i personally disagree with nearly everything they stand for but if someone was a socialist they are the closest to that ideal, as it looks like being a hung parliament they will hold quite a bit of power

 

[Skashion]

Yeah, because the recession is confined only to Britain. It's not global or anything...

Labour took the credit when the economy was growing but as soon as it goes tits up it becomes "global". Gordon saved/led the world out of the recession but why was Britain one of the last to emerge and why are we one of the most in debt?

True, they did take credit when the economy is growing, and so they've either got to take credit for both or neither. Predictably, as any party would, they're trying to escape blame whilst still taking credit for growth. It is completely disingenuous. However, the reality is that nowadays this relatively unregulated economy is mostly private and the most the government can do to influence the economy is through levels of public spending and setting interest rate targets. This is true whether it's a Conservative government or a Labour government. It can't really be said with any real credibility that we'd have been better off had the tories have been in government because as they like to remind us the tories are the party of business (substitute, bankers) and this recession has been caused by bankers. Economic stimulus' in times of recession seem to be just about the only time when a government truly can make a difference. Again, true, no matter what party is in power. Thatcher's cuts in the early 1980s recession deepened and prolonged recession. Brown's stimulus appears to have shortened and shallowed the recession.

We're in the most debt? Source please.

 

[KpxSte]

Labour took the credit when the economy was growing but as soon as it goes tits up it becomes "global". Gordon saved/led the world out of the recession but why was Britain one of the last to emerge and why are we one of the most in debt?

True, they did take credit when the economy is growing, and so they've either got to take credit for both or neither. Predictably, as any party would, they're trying to escape blame whilst still taking credit for growth. It is completely disingenuous. However, the reality is that nowadays this relatively unregulated economy is mostly private and the most the government can do to influence the economy is through levels of public spending and setting interest rate targets. This is true whether it's a Conservative government or a Labour government. It can't really be said with any real credibility that we'd have been better off had the tories have been in government because as they like to remind us the tories are the party of business (substitute, bankers) and this recession has been caused by bankers. Economic stimulus' in times of recession seem to be just about the only time when a government truly can make a difference. Again, true, no matter what party is in power. Thatcher's cuts in the early 1980s recession deepened and prolonged recession. Brown's stimulus appears to have shortened and shallowed the recession.

We're in the most debt? Source please.

I said we were "one of the most in debt" and as this source says, we are 4th highest in Europe for Net debt as a percentage of GDP with the 2nd highest budget deficit. Its also quuite interesting that you mention Thatchers cuts, because hasn't Darling admitted this week that their cuts will be even deeper?

 

[blueju]

The trade unions oversaw employment agencies taking over the building industry and the hire em fire em attitude, no expenses, no holiday pay and shite rates. They were in league with all the big sparky companies and the agencies in keeping rates down.
I have first hand experience of our union reps turning up on site in their brand new Jags to discuss 'union' business with the bosses and 'cards in' lads , and leaving out of the back door to avoid speaking to the 'scumbag' agency sparks. The fact that we were all time served sparks and served alongside the cards in boys for years as subcontractors,agency and cards in .
When we finally cornered our union rep on the Selfridges contract on the Trafford centre in 98, he again was there to see 'his' boys, not the agency scum. He had no way out and had to see us. The European courts had decided everyone must recieve holiday pay from their employers. Our's took it upon themselves to send us a letter stating they were reducing our pay from 7.50 to seven quid then on top of that we were to recieve another 50p holiday pay, taking our pay back to the original 7.50 ,backdated to the week previous.Obviously we were'nt too happy but our kind rep ,in the five miutes he allocated us (about twenty lads) he stated there was fck all he could do for us, that the agencies were arseholes and that they, in hand with the Labour government, were doing everything they could to wipe out the agencies and make everyone 'card's in'. He informed us that within 5yrs they would be gone.
Forward to 2006 when i left for Oz, and there were more failed double glazing salesmen, sorry, agencies setting up, than you could shake a shitty stick at, paying crap rates and hiring and firing at the drop of a hat.
Trades unions, New Labour, party of the people.....all bollocks. Snouts in the trough anyone?
I feel sorry for all the grassroots councillors and helpers who actually try and help their constituents, but then come election time, have to toe the party line set by their 'in'glorious leaders in Parliament.

 

[terryphelan]

For the first time since I reached voting age I just don't know what the libs stand for and what their policies are. TBH I have made no effort to find out, but surely this close to an election they should be making more noise?

let me help you out:

soft on crime
pro mass immigration
they want to tax the fuck out of everyone
they want to tell you exactly how to live your life, how they get away with the word 'liberal' in their name I do not know - they are the complete opposite.

If you are an immigrant, paedo, person on benefits then I can see how voting lib dem would be very attractive

 

[sweynforkbeard]

For the first time since I reached voting age I just don't know what the libs stand for and what their policies are. TBH I have made no effort to find out, but surely this close to an election they should be making more noise?

let me help you out:

soft on crime
pro mass immigration
they want to tax the fuck out of everyone
they want to tell you exactly how to live your life, how they get away with the word 'liberal' in their name I do not know - they are the complete opposite.

If you are an immigrant, paedo, person on benefits then I can see how voting lib dem would be very attractive

Sounds like they need stringing up to me.

 

[Skashion]

True, they did take credit when the economy is growing, and so they've either got to take credit for both or neither. Predictably, as any party would, they're trying to escape blame whilst still taking credit for growth. It is completely disingenuous. However, the reality is that nowadays this relatively unregulated economy is mostly private and the most the government can do to influence the economy is through levels of public spending and setting interest rate targets. This is true whether it's a Conservative government or a Labour government. It can't really be said with any real credibility that we'd have been better off had the tories have been in government because as they like to remind us the tories are the party of business (substitute, bankers) and this recession has been caused by bankers. Economic stimulus' in times of recession seem to be just about the only time when a government truly can make a difference. Again, true, no matter what party is in power. Thatcher's cuts in the early 1980s recession deepened and prolonged recession. Brown's stimulus appears to have shortened and shallowed the recession.

We're in the most debt? Source please.

I said we were "one of the most in debt" and as this source says, we are 4th highest in Europe for Net debt as a percentage of GDP with the 2nd highest budget deficit. Its also quuite interesting that you mention Thatchers cuts, because hasn't Darling admitted this week that their cuts will be even deeper?

That source does not say that. Try again. The PBR is massive though and is a problem. However, its size in comparison to the Eurozone is also indicative of the economic freedom we have compared to the Eurozone which operates very rigid budget deficits meaning they cannot be flexible as needs be.

Difference: cuts not happening DURING the recession. Depends on what you prefer. A longer and harder recession and then explosive growth or a shorter less painful recession and then more restrained growth.

 

[KpxSte]

That source does not say that. Try again. The PBR is massive though and is a problem. However, its size in comparison to the Eurozone is also indicative of the economic freedom we have compared to the Eurozone which operates very rigid budget deficits meaning they cannot be flexible as needs be.

Difference: cuts not happening DURING the recession. Depends on what you prefer. A longer and harder recession and then explosive growth or a shorter less painful recession and then more restrained growth.

I must confess that I know little about economics but this is what I was refering to:

European debt problems in a nutshell

Total debt problem: Net debt as percentage of GDP
Source: European Commission 2009 estimate

Italy - 114.6%
Greece - 112.6%
Portugal - 77.4%
UK - 68.6%
Ireland - 65.8%
Spain - 54.3%

Euro area - 78.2%


Estimated over-spend for 2009 (budget deficit)

Greece - 12.7%
UK - 12.1%
Ireland - 12.2%
Spain - 11%

As for the recession, it remains to be seen if we have seen the end of it especially with the inevitable cuts ahead.

 

[Skashion]

That source does not say that. Try again. The PBR is massive though and is a problem. However, its size in comparison to the Eurozone is also indicative of the economic freedom we have compared to the Eurozone which operates very rigid budget deficits meaning they cannot be flexible as needs be.

Difference: cuts not happening DURING the recession. Depends on what you prefer. A longer and harder recession and then explosive growth or a shorter less painful recession and then more restrained growth.

I must confess that I know little about economics but this is what I was refering to:

European debt problems in a nutshell

Total debt problem: Net debt as percentage of GDP
Source: European Commission 2009 estimate

Italy - 114.6%
Greece - 112.6%
Portugal - 77.4%
UK - 68.6%
Ireland - 65.8%
Spain - 54.3%

Euro area - 78.2%


Estimated over-spend for 2009 (budget deficit)

Greece - 12.7%
UK - 12.1%
Ireland - 12.2%
Spain - 11%

As for the recession, it remains to be seen if we have seen the end of it especially with the inevitable cuts ahead.

I know that's what you referring to is a complete list but it isn't.

Of the G8, we rank 7th:

Japan
Italy
France
Germany
Canada
United States (using gross national debt - rather than public)
United Kingdom
Russia

Sources:

<a class="postlink" href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 6rank.html</a>

<a class="postlink" href="http://buttonwood.economist.com/content/gdc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://buttonwood.economist.com/content/gdc</a>

The PBR is the real problem. Although, as I've shown above, we're still not doing too badly in terms of national debt in comparison to other comparable countries, it's growing rapidly and therefore threatening to become as bad or worse in the future. Instead of being 7th we may well end up being 5th or even 4th.

Another problem we shouldn't forget, and one which is mentioned in your article, is private debt. Britain's private debt is a bigger problem than our public debt in my opinion.

 

[SWP's back]

Not really much of a point is it?

ffs. People in glass houses and all that...

He wouldn't know irony if it hit him in the balls terry.<br /><br />-- Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:17 pm --<br /><br />

I don't think it matters who Ferguson votes for in a very safe Tory seat with a load of other rich people now does it?

To be fair, using the fact Ferguson votes Labour as a reason to not vote Labour just kinda shows the mentality you're dealing with when talking to Tory boys.

Working class Tory boys are the funniest. They're like Black KKK members, although you rarely see them due to either the costumes or their scarcity.

You really are a simplistic nonce aren't you.

Working class, what like a plumber that doesn't want to pay through the arse on tax? Or small business owners that have poured their heart and soul into a company, not wanting their pension pots taxed?

And to use the term Tory Boys. Well, doesn;t that make you all clever and superior eh Labour Lad or as I like to call you, "wildly aggresive (though lacking in balls) student toss bag".

 

[Bill]

labour are the united of politics, hated.

tick tock you robbing lying scum.

 

[Vicky]

Havn't labour done enough damage already..But I suppose if you want to live like sheep in a big brother society then yeah, vote Labour!
And if you vote labour England can continue to fight wars for the Americans that have nothing to do with us..BRITISH LAP DOG lol.....I remember when it was the BULL DOG. Oh happy days........

Political correctness, Bleeding heart liberalism, DNA data base like East Germany used to have and throw in the 1984 big brother society...NO THANKS...

ENOUGH ALREADY..

 

[SWP's back]

But the issue is that, unfortunately, none of them are, so why not use terryphelan's logic?

I'm not. I have already said I am not voting.
However, when I do feel that a party really CAN make a difference for the better they will have my vote.

Thank god for womens sufferage eh. Well worth it.<br /><br />-- Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:46 pm --<br /><br />

Now take a deep breath and tell us all how there are more public/private school oxbridge educated chaps and chappesses in the Labour government than there is in the shadow government? Comes to something when the likes of the multi-millionaire and Sainsburys heir to be Shaun Woodward defect from the Tories to Labour. He must have realised he was on a better screw with Tony's cronies and could amass even more of his millions, very socialist that isn't it?

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story though?

Can't believe the amount of people on here who still fall for the 'labour/working class' mantra. You could put a fucking red rosette on a chimp and you'd still vote for it.

Funny how all the leading lights of socialism have all come from privileged backgrounds, starting with Engels and going all the way through to Lord Wedgy Benn and that scruffy draft dodging cnut Foot. And we've not even mentioned that schyster Kinnock.Remember him, did he want the Lords abolished before he became a Lord as well? Nothing to do with values from any of them and more to do with guilt.

Off the top of my head there are only 2 labour MP's who you could actually call a 'proper' labour MP. Frank Field and Dennis Skinner, the rest are just as bigger slimeballs as the Tories you profess to despise.

Frank Allaun must be spinning in his grave.

No, no, no. Don't let facts get in the way of your good story. I didn't once mention private (public) school or Oxbridge. I mentioned the Bullingdon Club. What I was arguing against was needless wanton destruction purely because the person had enough money to pay for damages. I happen to think that is just disgusting and completely unjustifiable behaviour. You seem labouring under the delusion that I think the Labour party is socialist. What I've actually said is 'Thatcherism with a smiling face'/'lesser of two evils'. I've also said a hung parliament would be the best outcome of the election - thus implying I don't trust any of the major parties to run the country well and I'd be happier knowing that the damage they can inflict would be minimised.

You do have a point in that many of the most famous socialists have come from wealthy and privileged positions. Often tends, I think, to be because intellectuals favour left-wing ideologies and in times gone by only rich people could afford to become educated and certainly only the rich could afford to write about it. Even the likes of Orwell and Marx, who ended up living in genuine poverty at some point in their lives, were born into families which could afford to give them a good education.

Again, I also despise New Labour. I also think they're slimeballs. I just think the tories are worse.

You keep telling yourself that! pah

 

[mackenzie]

I'm not. I have already said I am not voting.
However, when I do feel that a party really CAN make a difference for the better they will have my vote.

Thank god for womens sufferage eh. Well worth it.

As I said on another thread SWP, I am well aware of the history of the Suffragettes and my reluctance to vote is not a comfortable position to find myself in.

I am sure the likes of Emily Davison and the Pankhurst ladies would have been more than happy to at least see me with the right of choice. It's my vote, nobody elses.

 

[SWP's back]

Thank god for womens sufferage eh. Well worth it.

As I said on another thread SWP, I am well aware of the history of the Suffragettes and my reluctance to vote is not a comfortable position to find myself in.

I am sure the likes of Emily Davison and the Pankhurst ladies would have been more than happy to at least see me with the right of choice. It's my vote, nobody elses.

It just pisses me off that more people voted for the winner of X Factor than voted in the last election. SO in the end, we get a party in power voted for by 25-30% of the potential electorate.

A democracy cannot work like that.

 

[mackenzie]

As I said on another thread SWP, I am well aware of the history of the Suffragettes and my reluctance to vote is not a comfortable position to find myself in.

I am sure the likes of Emily Davison and the Pankhurst ladies would have been more than happy to at least see me with the right of choice. It's my vote, nobody elses.

It just pisses me off that more people voted for the winner of X Factor than voted in the last election. SO in the end, we get a party in power voted for by 25-30% of the potential electorate.

A democracy cannot work like that.

It's the sign of a seriously disillusioned public. Whilst I do want to use my vote I can't bring myself to put a cross against any of them, and that feels like the lesser of two evils at the moment.

There are certain politicians that I think are worthy of voting for (Frank Field for one) but it's the party they are affiliated to that puts me off.

I may go and chain myself to the railings in protest on the day instead. Or smash the windows of number 10. ;-)

 

[SWP's back]

It just pisses me off that more people voted for the winner of X Factor than voted in the last election. SO in the end, we get a party in power voted for by 25-30% of the potential electorate.

A democracy cannot work like that.

It's the sign of a seriously disillusioned public. Whilst I do want to use my vote I can't bring myself to put a cross against any of them, and that feels like the lesser of two evils at the moment.

There are certain politicians that I think are worthy of voting for (Frank Field for one) but it's the party they are affiliated to that puts me off.

I may go and chain myself to the railings in protest on the day instead. Or smash the windows of number 10. ;-)

Do it :)

 

[law74]

Nu-labour slime balls have boosted the bankers by the tune of 2 trillion pounds, to put thet into perspective, if you were to spend £1 every second, £60 per minute, £360 per hour, it would take you 80,000 YEARS to spend this amount of money, but Mr Broon says that he cannot stop the bankers getting bonus payments many times more than the annual wage of the public sector workers he is demanding take a pay freeze, & has no problems in trying to tear up their contractsand reduce any redundancy payments that they would be entitled to if - when job cuts are required.
he has also said that the banking crises could not have been foretold, he lied.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.actionaid.org.br/Portals/0/Docs/righttothecity.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.actionaid.org.br/Portals/0/D ... hecity.pdf</a>

He says that cuts to Public Spending is required to cut the national defecit, but fails to mentiondoing anything to cut tax avoidance, £25 Billion per annum is lost to the public purse by tax avoidance, £12Billion by 700 of the largest corporations, and £13 Billion from citizens earning over £100,000 per annum.

He says about the great job he has done in building new hospitals, of 133 new hospitals built since Nu-liebour came to power in 1997, 101 have been built using Privately Funded Initiatives.
PFI's basically means that the IFU lends money to a private company and to the European Investment Bank and Government owned banks. They then lend the money to the private greed company, who build the project and then charge the taxpayer (ie us) for the next 25 years (even though we have already paid for it through the loans.
To quote George Monbiot in May 2009
"Though the government maintains that this offers better valuethan using public money, in reality the numbers behind all PFI contracts are rigged. While the government retains much of the risk, the investors keep the profits, which often run to many times the value of the schemes. The public liability incurred so far by PFI is £215 BILLION. One day the repayments will destroy Britains public finances.

so more information about tax avoidance
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcatart=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_con ... idcatart=2</a>

 

[Bluemoon115]

Nu-labour slime balls have boosted the bankers by the tune of 2 trillion pounds, to put thet into perspective, if you were to spend £1 every second, £60 per minute, £360 per hour, it would take you 80,000 YEARS to spend this amount of money, but Mr Broon says that he cannot stop the bankers getting bonus payments many times more than the annual wage of the public sector workers he is demanding take a pay freeze, & has no problems in trying to tear up their contractsand reduce any redundancy payments that they would be entitled to if - when job cuts are required.
he has also said that the banking crises could not have been foretold, he lied.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.actionaid.org.br/Portals/0/Docs/righttothecity.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.actionaid.org.br/Portals/0/D ... hecity.pdf</a>

He says that cuts to Public Spending is required to cut the national defecit, but fails to mentiondoing anything to cut tax avoidance, £25 Billion per annum is lost to the public purse by tax avoidance, £12Billion by 700 of the largest corporations, and £13 Billion from citizens earning over £100,000 per annum.

He says about the great job he has done in building new hospitals, of 133 new hospitals built since Nu-liebour came to power in 1997, 101 have been built using Privately Funded Initiatives.
PFI's basically means that the IFU lends money to a private company and to the European Investment Bank and Government owned banks. They then lend the money to the private greed company, who build the project and then charge the taxpayer (ie us) for the next 25 years (even though we have already paid for it through the loans.
To quote George Monbiot in May 2009
"Though the government maintains that this offers better valuethan using public money, in reality the numbers behind all PFI contracts are rigged. While the government retains much of the risk, the investors keep the profits, which often run to many times the value of the schemes. The public liability incurred so far by PFI is £215 BILLION. One day the repayments will destroy Britains public finances.

so more information about tax avoidance
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcatart=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_con ... idcatart=2</a>

Working class party, for working class people.