The fundamental flaw there is presuming loan clubs treat these kids in the same way Independiete treated Aguero when he broke through, or Gremio treated Ronaldinho, or Boca treated Tevez. They don't. You've named four players who broke through their academy teams into first teams that they already knew and understood and became loved by their own team in South America, a continent notorious for giving their OWN 17 year old wonderkids a go. 17 year olds rarely get a chance in Europe, never mind ones on loan from another club.
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Brahim Diaz
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The fundamental flaw there is presuming loan clubs treat these kids in the same way Independiete treated Aguero when he broke through, or Gremio treated Ronaldinho, or Boca treated Tevez. They don't. You've named four players who broke through their academy teams into first teams that they already knew and understood and became loved by their own team in South America, a continent notorious for giving their OWN 17 year old wonderkids a go. 17 year olds rarely get a chance in Europe, never mind ones on loan from another club.
Tevez City
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Then we sent Denayer out on loan to Gala and he regressed undoing any good work from Celtic. Maffeo's was quite good, now he's back out on loan again to the same team months later. Unal has gone out on loan cos he literally had no choice cos of work permit problems. Yeboah is the same, and has never played a solitary game for any of our academy sides. He's from the r2d academy and he will be sold on for a small profit probably. Celina's doing well, but his long term future at City is questionable.
I get you're trying to be positive but I really hate the pot luck hit rate wiht loans. There's just as many bad loans as there are good ones sadly and it feels that if a player does well on loan, it's in spite of the circumstances instead of because of them. The environments are usually hit and miss as fuck. Even if we do get it right, we get it wrong the second time. Denayer's learned had habits over inTurkey, and Byrne, initially good with Cambuur, has had a major setback being sent to a negative, physical team in Blackburn. Manu Garcia, terrible loan. Letting Barker go to Rotherham. Another terrible loan. The hit rate for clubs that mass horde loan players out is really, really low.
There can be good situations yes, but in general, they're usually totally and utterly guess work and that's why I hate them cos they're just as likely to ruin a player's confidence and ability as they are to make them something exciting in my opinion.
You are right.
Hopefully Pep will integrate them with 1st team soon.
Gareth Barry Conlon
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Then we sent Denayer out on loan to Gala and he regressed undoing any good work from Celtic. Maffeo's was quite good, now he's back out on loan again to the same team months later. Unal has gone out on loan cos he literally had no choice cos of work permit problems. Yeboah is the same, and has never played a solitary game for any of our academy sides. He's from the r2d academy and he will be sold on for a small profit probably. Celina's doing well, but his long term future at City is questionable.
I get you're trying to be positive but I really hate the pot luck hit rate wiht loans. There's just as many bad loans as there are good ones sadly and it feels that if a player does well on loan, it's in spite of the circumstances instead of because of them. The environments are usually hit and miss as fuck. Even if we do get it right, we get it wrong the second time. Denayer's learned had habits over inTurkey, and Byrne, initially good with Cambuur, has had a major setback being sent to a negative, physical team in Blackburn. Manu Garcia, terrible loan. Letting Barker go to Rotherham. Another terrible loan. The hit rate for clubs that mass horde loan players out is really, really low.
There can be good situations yes, but in general, they're usually totally and utterly guess work and that's why I hate them cos they're just as likely to ruin a player's confidence and ability as they are to make them something exciting in my opinion.
This is all true but i would reckon a player who has done a 12 month loan has far more chance of maintaining a place in our 1st 11 than any kid who breaks through direct. Of course you could get a Messi type player break through and do no wrong but in reality your far more likely to get a player a bit rough around the edges and having experience elsewhere would help.
Playing regularly is more valuable than having modern facilities.
Did Ronaldinho, Luis Suarez ,Aguero or Tevez had good facilities when they were 17-19 years old ?
Aguero was at Atletico Madrid.
Tevez was at Boca Juniors, possibly the richest club in South America.
I can guarantee they had infinitely better facilities than NAC Breda, or whatever league 1/2 team our kids could get loaned to.
lucashm
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You know whats funny, he was selected for the Andalucian team, for an exhibition match, which is pretty significant to me, shows how highly rated he is at his country, even though he doesnt even play professional football yet lol, and thats not even mentioning he was the best player on the pitch lol
The only reason we should use loans is a) When clubs ask for our players. These loans have worked out well (Unal & Celina to Twente, Byrne to Cambuur) or B) To give the kids a taste of life outside their bubble. See what professional football is like if you don't make it at the top, and make them grow up a bit.
Manu said that Pep told him to go out on loan and come back a man, so I assume that's the kind of thing they're hoping to get from that.
Otherwise sending them out just hoping they get play time is pointless.
Agree. Problem is these days it feels like its a a case of this:
'what's the plan for *insert 18 year old*?'...'dunno?'...'send them on loan?'...'yeah why not'
'who wants him?'...'dunno, ill ask *insert lower league club'...
lower league club boss goes to their chairman 'been offered this kid from City on loan'...chairman replies 'any good?'...'think so - City's kids are great'...
'get him, good backup either way'...'sure thing'........'hiya, we'll take him. Great talent, we're currently weak in *insert squad position* and he'll have a great chance of getting regular football"
Deal done. I'm aware there's more thought to it than that, but it feels that way at times and its depressing.
God I really fucking hate loans. Already despairing at the idea of Sancho and Brahim going out on loan to some shite club who throws them on the bench for the first misplaced pass and then their confidence falls and they end up a shite, shallow version of themselves cos of mismanagement.
Or they don't have the mentality to succeed. It's all very well having the talent and shining in the U21 league or whatever it is called now, but when it comes to proper football, with real jobs and points at stake, if they cant come back from a small set back then they aren't strong enough to succeed at a big club.
Do you not think that John Swift or Josh McEacheran are more talented than Jordan Henderson? Henderson as much as i despair of him as a player he never buckles under pressure, he never hides and his mentality is strong. You kick him, he will kick you back. You kick McEaracheran and he will go into hiding.
Or they don't have the mentality to succeed. It's all very well having the talent and shining in the U21 league or whatever it is called now, but when it comes to proper football, with real jobs and points at stake, if they cant come back from a small set back then they aren't strong enough to succeed at a big club.
Do you not think that John Swift or Josh McEacheran are more talented than Jordan Henderson? Henderson as much as i despair of him as a player he never buckles under pressure, he never hides and his mentality is strong. You kick him, he will kick you back. You kick McEaracheran and he will go into hiding.
And which of our young loanees do you think falls into that category?
And which of our young loanees do you think falls into that category?
I think the point is that very few players will progress because they need to have an overwhlming desire to succeed. We all want to see lots of these young players making it but the odds are not in their favour by any stretch. Players have to show they'll do anything to overcome adversity and keep improving and that includes learning from the loan.
As for loans being no use to players, i think we have to accept that we can't store players indefinitely and we need to create room for the next wave of youngsters by moving on the older ones. We may have clubs in mind but we don't get to dictate. And when we look back on the loan, we can either conclude the other club failed our player or that they were not driven enough to succeed. My view is that it is that it's the latter more often than not.
I think the point is that very few players will progress because they need to have an overwhlming desire to succeed. We all want to see lots of these young players making it but the odds are not in their favour by any stretch. Players have to show they'll do anything to overcome adversity and keep improving and that includes learning from the loan.
As for loans being no use to players, i think we have to accept that we can't store players indefinitely and we need to create room for the next wave of youngsters by moving on the older ones. We may have clubs in mind but we don't get to dictate. And when we look back on the loan, we can either conclude the other club failed our player or that they were not driven enough to succeed. My view is that it is that it's the latter more often than not.
do you know how hard it is, the mentality and commitment needed to make it to u21 level in an academy? It's insane, it's putting your entire adolescence on hold, dedicating yourself to football when your friends are going out and enjoying being young. Loads of players have left home, and their families, to come here and succeed.
They are all incredibly driven, they have that overwhelming desire or they wouldn't have made it this far. The odds are not in their favour, and some do go off the rails because they lose the commitment at the vital moment, but to say they don't have the mentality or desire is not understanding how absolutely cut-throat the academy system is in the modern game.
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