Re: British passport holders responsible for terror attacks
GStar said:
ElanJo said:
- The Islamic states which has not had US (and western) troops stationed there have created 1 terrorist for every 71 million people.
- The Islamic states which has had US (and western) troops stationed there have created 1 terrorist for every 1 million people.
...
Bin Laden, has very real and legitimate grievances with the West, which, if we actually wanted to destroy the threat of terrorism, we would take seriously and not let get clouded by our collective urge to be the biggest 'Patriot'. Every day that we allow our 'Patriotism' to undermine progress, another few hundred innocent people die.
I'm not sure where that first quote is from and i think it would be impossible for any statistic like that to be even remotely accurate... who collected that data and how?
Bin Laden lead the "operation" of flying two passenger aircrafts in to two of the most recognisable and influencial buildings in the world, he didn't target military bases, he didn't target political figures (there was no one of political importance in the Pentagon that day) he targeted civilians who had done no wrong against him. This was before the war on terror, before we went to Iraq, before we went to Afghanistan.
So, if we sat back and let him hatch his plans, a few thousand people could die each day as he launched wave after wave of attacks. Our actions were the consequences of that major attrocity. He uses the views you have to recruit extremists from our country. Do you think some 15 year old who has meals on the table every day, a house, a car, pocket money, friends. perhaps a part time job in this country will disregard all that for a country and an extremeist viewpoint he probably is too young to even remember? At 15/16 etc these people don't have a decent understanding of politics and how the world works imo (as a 21 y.o) and they're prime pickings for the terrorist leaders to pick and grome as the next wave of terrorist.
Why doesn't Bin Laden, his right hand men or anyone else of any importance perform any kind of "jihad", why do they send others instead? If they beleived what they said so strongly, they'd be commited to the cause, not sat somewhere pulling the strings and ordering confused yougsters to target civilians.
The stat is from Dying to Win, by Robert Pape. Iran has never produced a terrorist, Egypt has produced 1 notable terrorist (Mohamed Atta) and others like Bangladesh and Nigeria have also produced none to very few. These Islamic States haven't had US troops stationed there. Whereas Saudi Arabia (atleast 12 of the 911 hijackers were from here, as is Bin Laden of course) and the other Gulf states, which has had US troops stationed there, have produced many.. and continue to do so.
Of course you are correct, Bin Laden is evil for the way he has targeted civilians and yes, it was before Iraq and Afganistan, but our meddling in the affairs of the Middle Eastern states has been going on for most of the prior century. I supported the Afgan invasion because it seemed like we were going after the culprits of 911 , but Iraq? never. These 2 occupations have just been added to the list of grievances - and has actually cemented the original grievances in the minds of millions of muslims.
However I think the Pentagon is very much a Military base/ non civilian target - it is the heart of US (and UK, it would seem)Military operations.
Again, I agree with you that we need to go after Bin Laden. I would never suggest otherwise. Tho we arent stopping him from launching wave after wave of attacks at this moment in time. He has coaxed us into a war of attrition - an economic war - in the Middle East. He is attacking our troops every day. And that said, Al Qaeda arent really a top down organization. Its an ideology based on a set of grievances. He doesnt need to direct attacks. He doesnt need to attack the US, or UK anymore - atleast not on the scale and budget of 911.
He uses the views you have to recruit extremists from our country. Do you think some 15 year old who has meals on the table every day, a house, a car, pocket money, friends. perhaps a part time job in this country will disregard all that for a country and an extremeist viewpoint he probably is too young to even remember? At 15/16 etc these people don't have a decent understanding of politics and how the world works imo (as a 21 y.o) and they're prime pickings for the terrorist leaders to pick and grome as the next wave of terrorist.
The views I have are formed from years of reading books etc. on the subject and a high interest in politics and philosophy. I still manage to get the things you listed... other than pocket money! :(
I don't think very many would give up that list for a career in suicide terrorism... unless the person in question has been deeply affected by the foreign policy of this country. Perhaps this persons family back home has been wiped as a result of our Governments invasion/occupation? or merely they feel a strong connection with their kin.
I mean, Im English and not particularly nationalistic, religious or 'patriotic'... but even then, if this country was being occupied and bombed by ,say, the US or China, I would find myself an AK and fight back, as I am sure you would also. Perhaps I would feel so revengeful and hopeless , as a result of my family being killed by the occupiers, that I would even strap a bomb to myself?
"At 15/16 etc these people don't have a decent understanding of politics and how the world works imo (as a 21 y.o) and they're prime pickings for the terrorist leaders to pick and grome as the next wave of terrorist"
If they dont have a decent understanding of politics and how the world works I very much doubt that they would look at how we (our governments) have had a negative impact in the Middle East. I think it would be pretty much nailed on that they would have the view that "we = angelic .... them = evil"
Im not going to say you are totally wrong. It'd be stupid of me to suggest that what you say never happens... but I think it is a minute percentage compared to what we(Gov.) do around the world, when it comes to creating terrorists.
As for why Bin Laden doesn't strap a bomb to himself? Its the same reason why the Presidents and Prime Ministers of the West, or any country, don't whip on the camo and lead the frontlines into battle. They are the "leaders" .... and they are cowards.
I'd suggest picking up the following books on the subject of terrorism and AlQaeda:
Imperial Hubris, by Michael Scheuer.
This book was initially released by "Anonymous", because at the time Michael Scheuer was still the head of the Bin Laden unit for the CIA.
He has also written:
"Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America"
and soon has a book called:
"Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq" out early 2009, I believe.
Another good book on the subject of suicide terrorism is "Dying to Win", by Robert Pape.
