Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)

Status
Not open for further replies.
i´m not munich based, but

oh, dear 1860

for some historical reasons germany has developed a system of one city=one club.

St. Pauli survived in Hamburg by promoting themselves as the club for the political left worldwide.
Similiar in Berlin: Union Berlin took the image of a club run by the fans and never been sold to the commercial system of the west. That makes them unique and keeps them alive.

Well, 1860 should have found a way to become a different club, too. Instead in the 90s they had a management, that acted as if they were little brothers of Bayern München. To be fair, the city of Munich forced both clubs into a common Arena and never supported the idea of an own stadium for 1860. But already when they played in the Olympic stadium, they lost their identity. And i think, there is no way they get a ground of their own in Munich.
 
Innsbruckblue said:
Rhineland said:
Must admit you are funny though


So what's your team, Rhineland?

Re: Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)
Postby Rhineland » Mon May 05, 2014 6:53 pm

Rhineland said:

Innsbruckblue said:
I presume you're a Köln fan then?

yes, thought I had answered that already: 1. FC Köln
 
cptaidan88 said:
Moving away from the RB argument.... any Munich based posters able to provide any further info or an update on this?

http://stadiumdb.com/news/2014/07/m...e_allianz_arena_transport_authority_skeptical

I've got a soft spot for Die Löwen, and I'd love to see them back in the Bundesliga. Last December I saw the City EDS play at the Grünwalder and I thought 1860 would fare better moving back 'home'. I know its not quite that straight forward, but I think it would be better for both Munich clubs if 1860 moved on.

I am pretty sure it would be the right step for 1860 as well. Their Ultra´s stopped going to home games in the Allianz Arena for a while and only support the team on away trips.

Moving back would bring back a lot of their old fanbase and I am pretty sure they would be able to sell out pretty much every match.

From a fan point of view it makes every sense in the world but it seems their management wants to push them to the Bundesliga and rather stick with playing in their rivals ground than taking a step back and basically start from scratch.

Moving to the Olympia Stadion was one of the worst decisions ever basically ripping the Blue´s heart out..Imagine you were forced to play in OT!
 
First day wins for Darmstadt and Heidenheim, meaning Leipzig are the only newly promoted side not to have won.

On another note, is the Leckie who's playing for Ingolstadt the Australian one, who played for FSV Frankfurt and 'Gladbach?
 
Ruhr said:
Bayer sport clubs had been originally sport clubs for their workers, surely not created to sell a product in 1904. They were top in many sports, not only football, but also volleyball, basketball (several championships) at any place, where Bayer had factories.
Before the big money came in, Bayer often signed players promising them a career in the company after football. That was why there had been a lot of jokes about the office workers attitude of their players.
Then big money was spent in the 90s in german football and the Bayer company recognized, that they can´t sponsor all these Bayer clubs, so they closed down all of them including Bayer Uerdingen and focused on Bayer Leverkusen. Surely they also had used the company power in latin america to get talents and the way they got their hands on some east german players after the wall came down was ...well ..not illegal but close to it.

RB Leipzig is by the way not a sport club. With their 12 members that is only a kind of a false front. I bet their lawyers worked a lot to find that clever way of pretending a club where there is none.

By this reckoning, neither is City. Come on, Ruhr, we know you don't like RB, or agree with them, but don't come out with baseless statements that are far from the truth. Otherwise, you start to look foolish.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Lei...ood crowd to watch a non-football/sport club.
 
Innsbruckblue said:
Ruhr said:
RB Leipzig is by the way not a sport club. With their 12 members that is only a kind of a false front. I bet their lawyers worked a lot to find that clever way of pretending a club where there is none.

By this reckoning, neither is City. Come on, Ruhr, we know you don't like RB, or agree with them, but don't come out with baseless statements that are far from the truth. Otherwise, you start to look foolish.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB_Lei..., because it was baseless and far from truth?
 
MCFCHOWELL said:
First day wins for Darmstadt and Heidenheim, meaning Leipzig are the only newly promoted side not to have won.

On another note, is the Leckie who's playing for Ingolstadt the Australian one, who played for FSV Frankfurt and 'Gladbach?

Yep, its the same Leckie that played for FSV and Gladbach.
 
@InsbruckBlue: Its actually the truth. The membership fee for RB was (or is) absurd high, so only selected few people are able to afford it.

And it happened to be that all those 12 members are friends/related to the owner Mateschitz.
 
So the truth is that RB Leipzig is not a sports club? I know about the membership situation. However, the statement was made that RB is not a sports/football club BECAUSE it only has 12 members. By that criterion, neither are City, Utd, Spurs, Arsenal or any Premier League club. Just because RB does not adhere to the 50+1 rule does not mean it is not a club. Maybe people should look at the reasons why RB keeps being granted licenses, or why the other clubs in the Bundesliga haven't combined to complain to the DFB. Perhaps those fans who detest the existence of RB should question their own clubs' views on this situation.
 
On the national fan congress in Berlin in january i was sitting two seats next from the general manager of the Bundesliga association DFL, Andreas Rettig, in a debate about the future of investors in german football. And he was talking about the problems the DFL had in giving Red Bull al licence for Bundesliga 2. And not allowing membership was one of that problems.

Of course they are a club. As i said, their legal experts had done a good job to find a way of creating something that looks like a club (and that has nothing to do with City or other english clubs, because i´m talking about, what a "club" is according to german laws and how sport clubs in germany had worked for over a hundred years).

In that debate Rettig also mentioned the legal problems of the investor´s rule in german football and other experts gave a deeper insight in the strange role Volkswagen plays in the Bundesliga. So i´m not having a blind eye on this and i don´t think Red Bull is the one and only thing to worry about.

There had been many clubs in football history that had been financed by one sugar daddy. Tennis Borussia, Fortuna Köln, Wattenscheid 09 just to mention some of them. They all crashed when the money was gone. But they were also saved by their club members, because they had been there before the money came in and those clubs had their roots in the local community.

Whenever Red Bull decides to leave Leipzig, noone can save that club, because there are no members. And even if the fans would then try , they would have no legal rights. One reason for me to say, yes, they are a legally a "club", but different from what a club usually had looked like.
 
really looking forward to the start of the Bundesliga.

Looks like we have bored this thread to death with all these pros and cons about Leipzig. Neither 'side' will give in to the other side's arguments anyway.

Interesting match tonight: Lautern - 1860 Munich. Fancy Lautern to go top with an emphatic win.
 
Thank you, Ruhr, Rhineland and Bembeltown (and anyone else I've forgotten) for your forthright views on RB.
As I've already made clear, I'm not sure where I stand on the rights and wrongs of RB Leipzig, or whether I'm for or against.
However, I don't feel it's right for people to express their views without logical arguments and reasoning to support said views. Just saying that it's wrong for them to exist, or that the club is ruining football, without clearly explaining why, is something I can't understand. It's almost like me saying that FC Bayern shouldn't exist because the men who run the club are knobs - opinion, not fact.
We have differing opinions on the situation (I think RB is good for Leipzig, you think RB is bad for German football), and that's fine.
All I wanted was proper explanations for your views, which I now have received, and am very grateful for.
As one poster already said, it's time to put this topic to bed and let's look forward to the new season (I just hope Werder can do better than last year!).
 
Very good read

<a class="postlink" href="http://bundesligafanatic.com/the-bundesliga-and-german-society-a-virtuous-circle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://bundesligafanatic.com/the-bundes ... us-circle/</a>

In parts 1 and 2 in my series, I first looked at how the financial fair play rules in German football have an effect on the strengths of German soccer and then looked I looked at the cost of being a German football fan, particularly when contrasted with the fan experience in the English Premier League.
However, there is an over-arching theme even greater that football itself that I will discuss in this article. Namely, the role of football, in particular the Bundesliga, within German society. It is very interesting to examine this relationship apart from the statistics, facts and figures that can be represented in different ways. While it is fair to say football does hold an important social place in countries like Germany and England, it is also fair to say that the nature of the relationship is vastly different in either country.
In English society, supporters attending a football match tend to be viewed by authorities as a potential problem needing to be dealt with. Later in this article, I’ll explain how much it costs clubs in England to pay for extra policing and stewarding needed for crowd control (in 2007-2008, estimated at between £12 million and £15 million) and how that at certain times of the day, it is sometimes impossible to offer transport to or from the game.
All these things, of course, tend to cost money and in the main, it is the club that pays the bill, specifically in terms of policing and stewarding. In England, authorities try to strike a balance between keeping fans happy and safe and preventing trouble between opposing fans. However, too often the emphasis lies on the latter issue, rather than the first.
The net result of this emphasis, combined with this increasing sense of parochialism where only your club matters, tends to breed a somewhat strained atmosphere at games. This is particularly evident in games between heated local rivals, as well as clashes involving the traditional top 5 or 6 clubs in the Premier League.
In these games, atmospheres at grounds can be not only electric, but also hugely intimidating. The level of vitriol, anger and downright abuse at these games is viewed by some as all part of football banter. But there are times when this spills over into nothing but horrific, unwarranted and hurtful abuse, such as when fans of Liverpool and Manchester United taunt each other about the tragedies that have befallen their clubs, or when Arsenal fans chant about sending Spurs fans to the gas chambers.
Given that this happens often in high profile, televised games with the actions of the fans analysed repeatedly across all forms of media, it is easy to see why English society views the soccer fan almost as a naughty teen who needs firm boundaries and must be carefully watched to keep them out of mischief.
In Germany, the role of the fan in the larger social picture in Germany, and indeed, the make up of the supporters at a typical Bundesliga game is very, very different. As we have seen in my two previous articles, the fan is central to the entire decision-making process and thanks to the 50+1 rule in the Bundesliga, their interests are always represented at the highest levels within each club.
The difference these facets have on how society views German soccer fans is huge. Instead of ‘dealing’ with fans, German clubs and local authorities are happy to provide for them. This attitude is evident, not just in cheap ticket prices and free transport to and from games, but also in how the fans are treated.
German Bundesliga fans can stand to watch games, they can enjoy a beer and they do so with a remarkably low incidence of violence at games. German football treats fans, not as troubled teens, but as adults, respecting their views and providing a pleasurable atmosphere and environment for the football fan. This treatment becomes the expected experience all Bundesliga teams and local authorities should be offering.
The origins for this treatment, however, is interesting to look at and its roots lay firmly embedded in German football culture and how society in general views the game. In the UK, for example, the vast majority of football fans are from the same demographic: males between 18 and 40. Despite attempts from FA, the Premier League, and football clubs to encourage more women, children and families to the game, it is still predominantly a male-dominated fan base.
By contrast, in Germany there is a different demographic. At Borussia Dortmund, for example, as reported in this Daily Mirror article, 40% of supporters are under 25 years of age and many of them are women. This fact is interesting because it is this age range in England that has been prevented the most from attending matches due to the spiraling cost of attending games.
Football may still be male-dominated in the Bundesliga, but it is undoubtedly more female and child-friendly too, even if simply in terms of providing excellent facilities for these particular groups of football fans or having tickets priced in such a way that make the game accessible to more people.
The difference can be attributed to many things, but one key is a difference in mentality between England and Germany. Manchester United’s former manager, the legendary Sir Alex Ferguson often achieved a feeling of togetherness and success by instilling an “us against the world” attitude at Old Trafford. Unfortunately for the British game, this mentality now manifests itself across almost all top clubs. All gestures clubs make to include more women and children at the game and promoting a family atmosphere run somewhat paradoxically against the fact that quite simply, the clubs are bogged down by their own need for cash and self-interest to do this properly.
The reason for this tension is pure and simple economics. To attract more Under-25 women and children to Premier League games, clubs would radically need to lower their ticket prices. While strategy works in Germany, in England and the Premier League such a move would likely leave many clubs facing a serious debt shortfall at the season’s end.
It is often said that football is a part of English society, but in the present, football is actually separated from society. The void between the English fan, his club, and its players has never been wider or more difficult to bridge than in the present.
In the Bundesliga, the gap is much smaller, since, as majority shareholders, the fans effectively employ the players, which is how it used to be in England before the age of Sky mega-money, oligarchs and 16-year-old schoolboys earning £20,000 a week.
The real reason German society values its football supporters is because these fans are still a vital part of the Bundesliga both in terms of support and revenue. In the UK, the fans’ role has diminished significantly in importance to the point where now they are simply the clubs’ cash cows, ready to be milked at every available opportunity.
That isn’t healthy for football or society in England and it is why the German model thrives. Football serves society and society serves football: a virtuous circle.
 
Ruhr said:
a bit too positive view on german football.

Was about to write something similar.... Going to dig through the article tomorrow morning when I got a bit more time and will write my opinion on some parts.

Not sure who the author is, but when he writes about how fans are treated with respect in Germany he definitely never had the questionable honour to be to an away match with a bigger group of people.
 
Bembeltown said:
Ruhr said:
a bit too positive view on german football.

Was about to write something similar.... Going to dig through the article tomorrow morning when I got a bit more time and will write my opinion on some parts.

Not sure who the author is, but when he writes about how fans are treated with respect in Germany he definitely never had the questionable honour to be to an away match with a bigger group of people.
Compared to how we're treated over here, you're treated like royalty!
 
Good thread this.

I have always had a soft spot for Aachen since watching them in a UEFA game in Koln.

They have a long way to come back now,whats some of our German posters views on Aachen?

Agree re Bayer,shit all over the Krefeld boys back in the 90s.

Lastly, the Wifes family are from the Erfurt area,any views on Erfurt and their support as hoping to go there sometime?
 
Later in this article, I’ll explain how much it costs clubs in England to pay for extra policing and stewarding needed for crowd control (in 2007-2008, estimated at between £12 million and £15 million

Later? There wasn't even a pause!
 
Tbilisi said:
Good thread this.

I have always had a soft spot for Aachen since watching them in a UEFA game in Koln.

They have a long way to come back now,whats some of our German posters views on Aachen?

Agree re Bayer,shit all over the Krefeld boys back in the 90s.

Lastly, the Wifes family are from the Erfurt area,any views on Erfurt and their support as hoping to go there sometime?

Erfurt has a similar supporter base to Aachen. Relatively small, but loyal and passionate.

If you mange to get tickets for the Thüringen Derby against Jena you will have a good time. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top