Cameron suggests cutting housing benefit

[SWP's back]

OK bud, I think I get it, so the taxpayer didn't lose out financially, but we didn't benefit either ?
PS I'll insert this link for future reference when you are talking about finances to me mate ;-) <a class="postlink" href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_layman's_terms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_layman's_terms</a>

If it's agreed that there was always going to be an extra bank holiday whoever was in power as it has always happened then the tax payer looks to have benefitted to a small extent. The next GDP (growth) figures will be interesting. This summer should hopefully see a nice bounce thanks to the Jubilee, Euro's and Olympics which is all good news for the taxpayer.

Anything that gets people spending money as opposed to letting it sit on deposit in the banks is good news.

putting more money in peoples pockets by taxing them less so that they have summat to spend in the first place would also help

this means spending less on people that are abusing the state system or simply don't deserve to be benefiting disproportionately from the hard work (and taxes) of others

(yes of course some do deserve it and there's no problem there)

I've already said that the personal income tax allowance should start at £18-20k pa which would be a huge incentive to work for many. It would help out those that need it much (low earners) and could mean the end of tax credits.

 

[metalblue]

Cheers Rasc. I'm not sure why "compassionate conservatism" would be rare, perhaps it's the silent majority, IMO you only need to open your eyes a little in the real world to appreciate things aren't black and white...this is true of all sides of the political spectrum. Maybe its because I know what it's like to have nowt.

I've no idea on the DLA, it would seem arbitrary to say 20% unless it's a target for getting claimants to work or the usual smoke and mirrors with it being replaced by something else so they can move claimants from one pot to another...we can't leave people with nowt to live on that's for sure!!

I wasn't aware of that Grayling issue either, I'm not sure I can criticise him for his role in it all (being the end of the chain) but just reading the hoops that poor women has had to jump through is a disgrace...is there no extra pot for people diagnosed with cancer or other life threatening illness? There needs to be. And who the fuck is this atos bunch who declare her fit for work before her doctor? Are they medically trained?

Yes, cheers for the post aswell MB.

Firtstly mate, no I'm almost 100% certain it is a 'one size fits all' method, no special dispensation unless your prognosis is death within X months.
Secondly, the literature states you will be examined by 'a healthcare professional', this does not mean Doctor, you could be examined by a Mid-Wife or anybody else who can be classed as 'a healthcare professional', so basically it would be like calling out an electrician to sort your plumbing out and vice-versa, each knows a bit about each others job but nowhere near enough to be considered fully qualified.

Add to that the fact that ATOS are an absolute joke and have a terrible (and justified) reputation it really is a nightmare for many, if I was to write down some of the stunts they try and pull ( like if you struggle to get up the stairs they give you an appointment that isn't on the ground floor and tell you the lift isn't working) I'd be here all day bud.

Thanks for that, that's rather interesting. I don't understand the logic that we have a health service that treats the condition in a holistic way and then a seperate group who access the symptoms - I guess it might be the GP/consultant/etc is considered too close to the patient and could be swayed? Anyway it sounds like a fairly pointless excercise where the claimant is potentially told conflicting "verdicts" which only add frustration to a system that is already considered uncaring....not to mention the money that could be saved.

And if those are the sorts of "tricks" being played to validate your condition then that's what we would call a cunts trick that.

Now I've just googled who the fuck this ATOS bunch are, private company I see, whilst nothing theoretically wrong in that it raises the fear that they are paid on results of claim denial.

 

[Churchill123]

To be blunt - It fucking infuriates me that someone can have a house by 18 as long as they have 3 kids and don't want to work - yet someone who works hard can't afford to buy or rent until they are nearly 30!

so if your married working and have a kid your not allowed council housing?

Read what I wrote again you doughnut!

 

[Dirty Harry]

Thanks for that, that's rather interesting. I don't understand the logic that we have a health service that treats the condition in a holistic way and then a seperate group who access the symptoms - I guess it might be the GP/consultant/etc is considered too close to the patient and could be swayed? Anyway it sounds like a fairly pointless excercise where the claimant is potentially told conflicting "verdicts" which only add frustration to a system that is already considered uncaring....not to mention the money that could be saved.

And if those are the sorts of "tricks" being played to validate your condition then that's what we would call a cunts trick that.

Now I've just googled who the fuck this ATOS bunch are, private company I see, whilst nothing theoretically wrong in that it raises the fear that they are paid on results of claim denial.

I suppose that's a fair point mate ( for now we'll ignore that I personally think it calls into question a medical professionals integrity), but they (DWP and Decision Maker, neither of whom are qualified medically) at some point early in the process send the GP a seperate form for him/her to fill in for any other information about your symptoms/illness which is then collated and classed as 'supporting medical evidence'.

So, much of the information is to hand right at the start of the process, it seems it's just not actually either read properly or completely understood by the Decision Maker, sometimes the GP gets asked for more information to add or clarify, sometimes the claimant themselves (and many are in no fit state mentally to understand and comprehend what's being asked of them) are asked to do this, the questions themselves are even difficult for the GP to understand let alone the claimant.

The long and short of it from our experience and others seems to be 'YOU ARE HAVING A MEDICAL COME WHAT MAY' and that the medical evidence from the GP is only for guidance, information and attention for the ATOS 'professional'.

And I'll give you an example of how 'professional' it is, my old fella is a long term(50 + years) diabetic sufferer (type 1 and 2) amongst other things and can hardly see or hear and has had neuropathy in his feet for years, he's already had to have toes amputated and over the next couple of years he's likely to lose both feet as a result, he was turned down at his last review after his home visit medical by an 'ATOS professional' because a completely different ailment was examined and recorded and wasn't considered serious enough, when it was pointed out (and was pointed out at the time of the medical) that that wasn't his complaint, they had to come back and do another medical, he's still waiting for news as we speak, geez no wonder nobody has any confidence lol and I won't even start on my Mam's story ;-)

 

[pauldominic]

Cheers Rasc. I'm not sure why "compassionate conservatism" would be rare, perhaps it's the silent majority, IMO you only need to open your eyes a little in the real world to appreciate things aren't black and white...this is true of all sides of the political spectrum. Maybe its because I know what it's like to have nowt.

I've no idea on the DLA, it would seem arbitrary to say 20% unless it's a target for getting claimants to work or the usual smoke and mirrors with it being replaced by something else so they can move claimants from one pot to another...we can't leave people with nowt to live on that's for sure!!

I wasn't aware of that Grayling issue either, I'm not sure I can criticise him for his role in it all (being the end of the chain) but just reading the hoops that poor women has had to jump through is a disgrace...is there no extra pot for people diagnosed with cancer or other life threatening illness? There needs to be. And who the fuck is this atos bunch who declare her fit for work before her doctor? Are they medically trained?

Yes, cheers for the post aswell MB.

Firtstly mate, no I'm almost 100% certain it is a 'one size fits all' method, no special dispensation unless your prognosis is death within X months.
Secondly, the literature states you will be examined by 'a healthcare professional', this does not mean Doctor, you could be examined by a Mid-Wife or anybody else who can be classed as 'a healthcare professional', so basically it would be like calling out an electrician to sort your plumbing out and vice-versa, each knows a bit about each others job but nowhere near enough to be considered fully qualified.

Add to that the fact that ATOS are an absolute joke and have a terrible (and justified) reputation it really is a nightmare for many, if I was to write down some of the stunts they try and pull ( like if you struggle to get up the stairs they give you an appointment that isn't on the ground floor and tell you the lift isn't working) I'd be here all day bud.

Thanks for that, that's rather interesting. I don't understand the logic that we have a health service that treats the condition in a holistic way and then a seperate group who access the symptoms - I guess it might be the GP/consultant/etc is considered too close to the patient and could be swayed? Anyway it sounds like a fairly pointless excercise where the claimant is potentially told conflicting "verdicts" which only add frustration to a system that is already considered uncaring....not to mention the money that could be saved.

And if those are the sorts of "tricks" being played to validate your condition then that's what we would call a cunts trick that.

Now I've just googled who the fuck this ATOS bunch are, private company I see, whilst nothing theoretically wrong in that it raises the fear that they are paid on results of claim denial.

I've been on the receiving end of ATOS twice and they are everything people have made them out to be.

The answer is yes - they're paid to get people off the benefit.

 

[metalblue]

Thanks for that, that's rather interesting. I don't understand the logic that we have a health service that treats the condition in a holistic way and then a seperate group who access the symptoms - I guess it might be the GP/consultant/etc is considered too close to the patient and could be swayed? Anyway it sounds like a fairly pointless excercise where the claimant is potentially told conflicting "verdicts" which only add frustration to a system that is already considered uncaring....not to mention the money that could be saved.

And if those are the sorts of "tricks" being played to validate your condition then that's what we would call a cunts trick that.

Now I've just googled who the fuck this ATOS bunch are, private company I see, whilst nothing theoretically wrong in that it raises the fear that they are paid on results of claim denial.

I suppose that's a fair point mate ( for now we'll ignore that I personally think it calls into question a medical professionals integrity), but they (DWP and Decision Maker, neither of whom are qualified medically) at some point early in the process send the GP a seperate form for him/her to fill in for any other information about your symptoms/illness which is then collated and classed as 'supporting medical evidence'.

So, much of the information is to hand right at the start of the process, it seems it's just not actually either read properly or completely understood by the Decision Maker, sometimes the GP gets asked for more information to add or clarify, sometimes the claimant themselves (and many are in no fit state mentally to understand and comprehend what's being asked of them) are asked to do this, the questions themselves are even difficult for the GP to understand let alone the claimant.

The long and short of it from our experience and others seems to be 'YOU ARE HAVING A MEDICAL COME WHAT MAY' and that the medical evidence from the GP is only for guidance, information and attention for the ATOS 'professional'.

And I'll give you an example of how 'professional' it is, my old fella is a long term(50 + years) diabetic sufferer (type 1 and 2) amongst other things and can hardly see or hear and has had neuropathy in his feet for years, he's already had to have toes amputated and over the next couple of years he's likely to lose both feet as a result, he was turned down at his last review after his home visit medical by an 'ATOS professional' because a completely different ailment was examined and recorded and wasn't considered serious enough, when it was pointed out (and was pointed out at the time of the medical) that that wasn't his complaint, they had to come back and do another medical, he's still waiting for news as we speak, geez no wonder nobody has any confidence lol and I won't even start on my Mam's story ;-)

I had the same thoughts to be fair so no disagreement from me. Do you know what the qualifications of this "professional" was at all mate?

I've been on the receiving end of ATOS twice and they are everything people have made them out to be.

The answer is yes - they're paid to get people off the benefit.

Would be very interested in any evidence to back this up mate, no worries if just a hunch but I imagine there are plenty of stories if this the case...I'll be honest I've not really heard/seen about this before so apologies if this all yesterday's news- has there been much "outcry" from the press? Or maybe they think no one gives a fuck about the incapacitated.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

The peop who hold all the wealth in this country are in their 60's and older. Lots have guaranteed incomes that are easily enough for them yet won't spend their wealth or pass it down because they come from a "save for a rainy day" era and always think the worst is goig to happen. I have seen people die with hundreds of thousands of pounds in savings.

If these people started spending that alone would boost the economy.

 

[SWP's back]

The peop who hold all the wealth in this country are in their 60's and older. Lots have guaranteed incomes that are easily enough for them yet won't spend their wealth or pass it down because they come from a "save for a rainy day" era and always think the worst is goig to happen. I have seen people die with hundreds of thousands of pounds in savings.

If these people started spending that alone would boost the economy.

Agreed but they'll be dead in 20 years and their children will instantly blow whatever is left after IHT and we will become great again (for 10 years then we'll be fucked but all have nice cars and own a street in Spain).

 

[Dirty Harry]

I had the same thoughts to be fair so no disagreement from me. Do you know what the qualifications of this "professional" was at all mate?

Just spoke to the old fella to clarify a few things MB and he says he introduced himself as Doctor, further to that, the mix up seems to have occurred because he was told he needed to add to his claim because of his Neuropathy, he was already claiming for Nethropathy.

The Neuropathy seems to have been completely missed despite the old fella telling him about his feet and how bad they were, the old fella says he wondered why he kept on ignoring what he was saying lol.

Now I don't know about you mate, but given it's well known that the two are often confused anyway, I'd have thought it would be far more obvious to a Doctor and alarm bells would ring when he's examining someone for Nethropathy that when a diabetic patient is trying to tell him about his feet during it that something isn't quite right ?

 

[Rascal]

has there been much "outcry" from the press? Or maybe they think no one gives a fuck about the incapacitated.

8000 disabled wheelchaired/hobbled etc to parliament sq in protest at cuts, not one paper or tv station reported it.

There has been snippets, one funnily enough in the mail of all places. But overall virtually nothing.

My favorite/most stupid ATOS story was a healthcare professional casually asked a female "customer" if she had watched last nights Eastenders. On her medical report it stated she could sit comfortably for a reasonable amount of time.

ATOS is a French IT company, the form you fill in is a tick box system that awards points for certain things. Questions include, can you pick up an empty cardboard box, can you pick up a pound coin and can you get up from a chair and sit in another chair???

From these questions they collate points and send recommendations to the DWP. the DWP assesor decides whether the person is then allocated to ESA support group or ESA work activity group. ESA work related is time limited to 12 months. If by then you have no job you lose all your benefits.

Now to relate this to the thread. Housing benefit im sure will go down this same severly means tested route, decisions will be arbitary and perhaps even based on the whims of the person on any given day.

When i said earlier in the thread that the welfare state is being dismantled, i really meant it, it is, i see it, i read about it everyday and i see the stress, the pain and the suffering it is causing. The Govt can do this because a majority of people believe the scrounging feckless myth purported by the right wing press. Yes there are these people of course but the overwhelming majority of people who desperatly need the support that a decent society should offer are being demonised and castigated as a result.