CAS judgement: UEFA ban overturned, City exonerated (report out p603)

An absolute gem of a post. You know your stuff !!! Could I ask a question?? Say City potentially did something wrong..Perhaps a borderline decision in retrospect. Do you hold your hands up and admit guilt, which could be detrimental, or do you say, well in our eyes, we acted in good faith, so prove we did something wrong ? i ask this in light of the ongoing PL investigation and just wonder if admitting guilt may not be the best approach.

I personally am sick and tired hearing of these pathetic snippets about our club when truthfully I can not remember one article which deals with the absolute benefit City have made for the local community.

I apologise for the length of this response - I have major problems with brevity! In summary, my own inclination is that the current stance City are taking is absolutely the right one.

I think, in general, if you get caught bang to rights or if an investigation starts that you know will uncover incriminating evidence, then it's better to admit it. I personally doubt that we're in that position here. Apart from anything else, if there'd been anything that clearly pointed to our guilt, surely the PL would have laid charges rather than still been plugging away four years on. They'd probably have done so for anything that was borderline, too.

Assuming they've nothing by way of evidence that wasn't printed in Der Spiegel or aired before the CAS panel, then they can doubtless make a case that City have sought to circumvent various regulations in a way that the regulators themselves may not have anticipated. We also probably have a closer relationship with certain Abu Dhabi state companies that some of our critics would deem fair. After all, we were able to contact a couple of them and ask them to increase our sponsorship fee to help us meet an unexpected expense - and they did. You can bet most entities sponsored by Abu Dhabi state-owned companies wouldn't have such a request met with that answer.

If people want to criticise us for that then it's their prerogative, but they should be knowledgeable enough to be aware yet honest enough to admit that none of it means we've broken the rules. Nor is that a borderline call. Every day, all over the world, companies work with legal and financial experts to lawfully avoid the effect of regulatory regimes that have the potential to have a detrimental impact on their business. That IMO is what we've done, no more and no less.

We "took a pinch" once and our executives, though recognising discretion to be the better part of valour, were furious about having to do so. The chairman said we wouldn't take that course again, and I'm inclined to believe that we wouldn't accept a punishment on a second occasion when we think it unjustified.

I suppose I should add that, in any litigation, the specialists will tell you that, even with an incredibly strong case, you're never certain to win - usually, your brief won't venture a forecast of higher than an 80% prospect even if your case seems unassailable. For that reason, the overwhelming majority of cases are settled before they get to court. You can argue, as Stefan for one did, that the prudent course would have been for City to settle the case against UEFA before it reached CAS if they'd suspend or lift any ban.

It worked out OK for City in the end at CAS: in other words, what was probably a calculated gamble paid off. We're not at the stage of deciding whether to run a similar risk with the PL as far as I can tell. We seem to have invited the PL to put up or shut up, and they seem unable as far as I can tell to do the former while remaining unwilling as yet to do the latter. If they ever do charge us, we'll have to see what the accusation is and take it from there.

The only other point I'd add is that City's uncompromising stance may be acting as a deterrent to the PL in trying to put forward a weak charge or two. They know we'll throw everything at fighting any accusation unless they can clearly prove it and I think we've done right to ensure that they understand the point.
 
I apologise for the length of this response - I have major problems with brevity! In summary, my own inclination is that the current stance City are taking is absolutely the right one.

I think, in general, if you get caught bang to rights or if an investigation starts that you know will uncover incriminating evidence, then it's better to admit it. I personally doubt that we're in that position here. Apart from anything else, if there'd been anything that clearly pointed to our guilt, surely the PL would have laid charges rather than still been plugging away four years on. They'd probably have done so for anything that was borderline, too.

Assuming they've nothing by way of evidence that wasn't printed in Der Spiegel or aired before the CAS panel, then they can doubtless make a case that City have sought to circumvent various regulations in a way that the regulators themselves may not have anticipated. We also probably have a closer relationship with certain Abu Dhabi state companies that some of our critics would deem fair. After all, we were able to contact a couple of them and ask them to increase our sponsorship fee to help us meet an unexpected expense - and they did. You can bet most entities sponsored by Abu Dhabi state-owned companies wouldn't have such a request met with that answer.

If people want to criticise us for that then it's their prerogative, but they should be knowledgeable enough to be aware yet honest enough to admit that none of it means we've broken the rules. Nor is that a borderline call. Every day, all over the world, companies work with legal and financial experts to lawfully avoid the effect of regulatory regimes that have the potential to have a detrimental impact on their business. That IMO is what we've done, no more and no less.

We "took a pinch" once and our executives, though recognising discretion to be the better part of valour, were furious about having to do so. The chairman said we wouldn't take that course again, and I'm inclined to believe that we wouldn't accept a punishment on a second occasion when we think it unjustified.

I suppose I should add that, in any litigation, the specialists will tell you that, even with an incredibly strong case, you're never certain to win - usually, your brief won't venture a forecast of higher than an 80% prospect even if your case seems unassailable. For that reason, the overwhelming majority of cases are settled before they get to court. You can argue, as Stefan for one did, that the prudent course would have been for City to settle the case against UEFA before it reached CAS if they'd suspend or lift any ban.

It worked out OK for City in the end at CAS: in other words, what was probably a calculated gamble paid off. We're not at the stage of deciding whether to run a similar risk with the PL as far as I can tell. We seem to have invited the PL to put up or shut up, and they seem unable as far as I can tell to do the former while remaining unwilling as yet to do the latter. If they ever do charge us, we'll have to see what the accusation is and take it from there.

The only other point I'd add is that City's uncompromising stance may be acting as a deterrent to the PL in trying to put forward a weak charge or two. They know we'll throw everything at fighting any accusation unless they can clearly prove it and I think we've done right to ensure that they understand the point.
I believe that the PL have probably ended up in the same position as UEFA did with their politically-motivated investigation. They have no evidence of FFP wrongdoing by City (because there is none) and now they are looking for a way out.
Remember Ceferin tried to strike a deal with City last time just before it went to CAS and we told him to get stuffed. The PL has now wasted nearly four years on a witchhunt and need to save face. They will let it drag on and then try and blame it all on a flawed legal process telling their masters at LFC and MUFC "we did our best."
Then LFC and MUFC will spread their poison to the media again behind closed doors saying we can't do anything about City: " We all know they are corrupt but the process was timed out again." And so the smear campaign goes on. Perhaps the departure of FSG will calm things down a bit because they have certainly been the prime movers against us....not least because the Glazers are totally incompetent.
 
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I apologise for the length of this response - I have major problems with brevity! In summary, my own inclination is that the current stance City are taking is absolutely the right one.

I think, in general, if you get caught bang to rights or if an investigation starts that you know will uncover incriminating evidence, then it's better to admit it. I personally doubt that we're in that position here. Apart from anything else, if there'd been anything that clearly pointed to our guilt, surely the PL would have laid charges rather than still been plugging away four years on. They'd probably have done so for anything that was borderline, too.

Assuming they've nothing by way of evidence that wasn't printed in Der Spiegel or aired before the CAS panel, then they can doubtless make a case that City have sought to circumvent various regulations in a way that the regulators themselves may not have anticipated. We also probably have a closer relationship with certain Abu Dhabi state companies that some of our critics would deem fair. After all, we were able to contact a couple of them and ask them to increase our sponsorship fee to help us meet an unexpected expense - and they did. You can bet most entities sponsored by Abu Dhabi state-owned companies wouldn't have such a request met with that answer.

If people want to criticise us for that then it's their prerogative, but they should be knowledgeable enough to be aware yet honest enough to admit that none of it means we've broken the rules. Nor is that a borderline call. Every day, all over the world, companies work with legal and financial experts to lawfully avoid the effect of regulatory regimes that have the potential to have a detrimental impact on their business. That IMO is what we've done, no more and no less.

We "took a pinch" once and our executives, though recognising discretion to be the better part of valour, were furious about having to do so. The chairman said we wouldn't take that course again, and I'm inclined to believe that we wouldn't accept a punishment on a second occasion when we think it unjustified.

I suppose I should add that, in any litigation, the specialists will tell you that, even with an incredibly strong case, you're never certain to win - usually, your brief won't venture a forecast of higher than an 80% prospect even if your case seems unassailable. For that reason, the overwhelming majority of cases are settled before they get to court. You can argue, as Stefan for one did, that the prudent course would have been for City to settle the case against UEFA before it reached CAS if they'd suspend or lift any ban.

It worked out OK for City in the end at CAS: in other words, what was probably a calculated gamble paid off. We're not at the stage of deciding whether to run a similar risk with the PL as far as I can tell. We seem to have invited the PL to put up or shut up, and they seem unable as far as I can tell to do the former while remaining unwilling as yet to do the latter. If they ever do charge us, we'll have to see what the accusation is and take it from there.

The only other point I'd add is that City's uncompromising stance may be acting as a deterrent to the PL in trying to put forward a weak charge or two. They know we'll throw everything at fighting any accusation unless they can clearly prove it and I think we've done right to ensure that they understand the point.
Sir, thank you for your reply..Something for me does not sit right with the protracted nature of this investigation..I believe you hit the nail on the head..put up or shut up.
 
I have zero legal knowledge, how long is this P/L investigation going to go on for, nearly 4 years now, surely there must be some legal mechanism given the length of time, to say put up or shut up.
 
Is

Is the deadline 6 years on this?
I'm no legal eagle but my understanding is that in the absence of any statute of limitations in the PL's own rules, then the standard under English law is a maximum 6 years.

Of course it depends when the 6 years starts. If they find or suspect that there is some issue with the current Etihad (or any other) sponsorship, then they can probably go back 6 years from any alleged breach. If they're investigating specific historic transactions, say ones in 2014 or 2015, then those might be time-barred now.

It also depends if the interpretation is 6 years from the start of the formal investigation or 6 years prior to any actual charge being brought. And iirc CAS ruled that any financial year involving a transaction that fell within the 6 year period was fair game. For example, our financial year starts on July 1st, so if charges were brought on 1st December 2022, anything from the 2015/16 FY could be investigated, even one that took place in July 2016. The reasoning behind the CAS decision was, iirc again, that these accounts formed the basis of our FFP financial return to UEFA.
 
I'm no legal eagle but my understanding is that in the absence of any statute of limitations in the PL's own rules, then the standard under English law is a maximum 6 years.

Of course it depends when the 6 years starts. If they find or suspect that there is some issue with the current Etihad (or any other) sponsorship, then they can probably go back 6 years from any alleged breach. If they're investigating specific historic transactions, say ones in 2014 or 2015, then those might be time-barred now.

It also depends if the interpretation is 6 years from the start of the formal investigation or 6 years prior to any actual charge being brought. And iirc CAS ruled that any financial year involving a transaction that fell within the 6 year period was fair game. For example, our financial year starts on July 1st, so if charges were brought on 1st December 2022, anything from the 2015/16 FY could be investigated, even one that took place in July 2016. The reasoning behind the CAS decision was, iirc again, that these accounts formed the basis of our FFP financial return to UEFA.
They will let it run for the 6 years say they ran out of time and we will 'get off' on the time bound technicality.
 
I have zero legal knowledge, how long is this P/L investigation going to go on for, nearly 4 years now, surely there must be some legal mechanism given the length of time, to say put up or shut up.

The principles are laid down in the Limitation Act 1980.

My understanding of the general principle is that an action cannot be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action occured. The PL have not brought any action so far - they are at the moment only investigating. So if they were to bring an action today, they could only do so for events that occurred after 16 November 2016. Anything prior to that date is now time, or statute barred.

The Limitation Act goes on to list many circumstances where the limitation period might be extended. I am not sure, but I don't think we would fall into any of the circumstances listed.

Limitation Act 1980

An action founded on tort shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.

 
The principles are laid down in the Limitation Act 1980.

My understanding of the general principle is that an action cannot be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action occured. The PL have not brought any action so far - they are at the moment only investigating. So if they were to bring an action today, they could only do so for events that occurred after 16 November 2016. Anything prior to that date is now time, or statute barred.
Thanks for the answers guys
The Limitation Act goes on to list many circumstances where the limitation period might be extended. I am not sure, but I don't think we would fall into any of the circumstances listed.

The principles are laid down in the Limitation Act 1980.

My understanding of the general principle is that an action cannot be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action occured. The PL have not brought any action so far - they are at the moment only investigating. So if they were to bring an action today, they could only do so for events that occurred after 16 November 2016. Anything prior to that date is now time, or statute barred.

The Limitation Act goes on to list many circumstances where the limitation period might be extended. I am not sure, but I don't think we would fall into any of the circumstances listed.
Thanks for the info guys, cleared some stuff up. But my question was how long can the P/L investigation go on for, the next 5, 10 ,20 years. Homicides are always open, Sheikh Mansour allegedly breaching FFP is not a crime, surely there must be some cut off point.
 

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