Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
The problem with condemning China, Saudi Arabia, the UAE et al over "human rights abuses" is that we approach it from a western, liberal perspective, whereas these countries aren't western, liberal democracies and have never been or even been close to being.
China's modern history (from 1850) is quite horrifying. It wasn't some slightly bourgeois, decaying democracy prior to the Communist takeover in 1949. It was a series of fiefdoms run by warlords with, at best, the most minimal and ineffectual central government. Civil wars, famines and other natural disasters were common. They suffered domination by Japan, and the other imperial powers, particularly us.
And even since 1949, where they have had a largely effective central government, the country has undergone major upheaval, during the Cultural Revolution, which ran from the q960's into the mid-1970's, then the protests in the late 1980's that led to the Tiananmen Square massacre. What sort of state was this country in around 30 years after Peterloo? And there's plenty of evidence that the overwhelming majority of Chinese citizens are quite happy with things. They have a roof over their head, modern facilities, can put food on the table and can educate their kids, instead of watching them die from hunger. If the Communist Party leadership overreact to an excessive and unacceptable degree (as they did in 1989 and are doing now in Xinjiang) it's because their biggest fear is a return to instability.
Most of the countries in the Middle East only came into being after World War 1. They didn't spring into life as fully-formed, liberal democracies with a free press and independent judiciary. They were absolute monarchies in most cases. The UAE has just celebrated its 50th anniversary as an independent state. What were we doing in 1116?
That's why it's very dangerous to judge other countries by our own standards. And we're hardly perfect are we? We held a World Cup 56 years ago, while it was still illegal to be homosexual and while it was still possible to be sentenced to death by the state. Even today, people live on the streets, families go hungry and lack fit-for-purpose accommodation. Some people may even die of hypothermia this winter.
We have a prime minister who has effectively been elected by just over 80,000 people. A seemingly innocent black man (not for the first time) has effectively been 'executed' by our police. Our football players have taken the knee before every game in the cause of racial justice. And that's all in a supposedly liberal democracy.
China's modern history (from 1850) is quite horrifying. It wasn't some slightly bourgeois, decaying democracy prior to the Communist takeover in 1949. It was a series of fiefdoms run by warlords with, at best, the most minimal and ineffectual central government. Civil wars, famines and other natural disasters were common. They suffered domination by Japan, and the other imperial powers, particularly us.
And even since 1949, where they have had a largely effective central government, the country has undergone major upheaval, during the Cultural Revolution, which ran from the q960's into the mid-1970's, then the protests in the late 1980's that led to the Tiananmen Square massacre. What sort of state was this country in around 30 years after Peterloo? And there's plenty of evidence that the overwhelming majority of Chinese citizens are quite happy with things. They have a roof over their head, modern facilities, can put food on the table and can educate their kids, instead of watching them die from hunger. If the Communist Party leadership overreact to an excessive and unacceptable degree (as they did in 1989 and are doing now in Xinjiang) it's because their biggest fear is a return to instability.
Most of the countries in the Middle East only came into being after World War 1. They didn't spring into life as fully-formed, liberal democracies with a free press and independent judiciary. They were absolute monarchies in most cases. The UAE has just celebrated its 50th anniversary as an independent state. What were we doing in 1116?
That's why it's very dangerous to judge other countries by our own standards. And we're hardly perfect are we? We held a World Cup 56 years ago, while it was still illegal to be homosexual and while it was still possible to be sentenced to death by the state. Even today, people live on the streets, families go hungry and lack fit-for-purpose accommodation. Some people may even die of hypothermia this winter.
We have a prime minister who has effectively been elected by just over 80,000 people. A seemingly innocent black man (not for the first time) has effectively been 'executed' by our police. Our football players have taken the knee before every game in the cause of racial justice. And that's all in a supposedly liberal democracy.