City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Wilf Wild 1937 said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
citizen_maine said:
Doesn't this just mean we can't include goods/services to other members of the group (e.g. IP rights etc) in our FFP calculation?
Yes I think that's exactly what it means. Doesn't mean we can't include them in revenue totally.

That is specific to things like IP rights but other revenue streams such as sponsorship of the CFG were not on the table when we
drew up the last accounts. The fear is that UEFA may decide what it allows as MANCHESTER City's allocation of such monies and
what it deems to be the other CITY clubs' share.


If that is indeed the case, then City would have already pulled the plug with regards NYCFC and Melbourne?

There's absolutely no good reason for the City Football Group if it does not serve the ultimate goal of the queen bee.

Others can talk about a wider perspective, but there is no way City would believe that everything they are now putting in place will be black-balled on a whim by Uefa.

Sheikh Mansour, rich as he is, doesn't need to take a £200m gamble in other franchises, on a wing and a prayer.

Otherwise, he and we would have been better served spending that amount on lawyers and still had the spare change from a two-year Champions League expulsion.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Wilf Wild 1937 said:
strongbowholic said:
Whatever the case maybe, City have decided to play the long game on this.

Personally I think we are waiting for the Dupont case to rule this whole fiasco illegal. I think that the club are confident that
Dupont will win, as am I. From what we know the club's gut feeling was to fight this (and probably miss this year's CL) but
pressure was put on them by our sponsors not to. I agree with acton28 that in any sane world we should be held up by UEFA
as the role model of how to revive a fallen giant in a way that not only makes the club competitive again after decades of failure
but that benefits the whole community. The problem as we all know is that UEFA is run by the G14 who have no desire to see
City, Everton, Hamburg, Valencia or whoever threaten their domination.

I thought the Dupont case got thrown out? <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/20/uefa-defeats-financial-fair-play-challenge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... -challenge</a>
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

cityboy2602 said:
Wilf Wild 1937 said:
strongbowholic said:
Whatever the case maybe, City have decided to play the long game on this.

Personally I think we are waiting for the Dupont case to rule this whole fiasco illegal. I think that the club are confident that
Dupont will win, as am I. From what we know the club's gut feeling was to fight this (and probably miss this year's CL) but
pressure was put on them by our sponsors not to. I agree with acton28 that in any sane world we should be held up by UEFA
as the role model of how to revive a fallen giant in a way that not only makes the club competitive again after decades of failure
but that benefits the whole community. The problem as we all know is that UEFA is run by the G14 who have no desire to see
City, Everton, Hamburg, Valencia or whoever threaten their domination.

I thought the Dupont case got thrown out? <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/20/uefa-defeats-financial-fair-play-challenge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... -challenge</a>

My understanding is it wasn't thrown out but referred back to the original Court in which it was brought, and the legal process dealt with through that Court.

This will be decided in Spring next year sometime. IMO he will win and that will throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

I'm just glad that we made it into the castle keep before the drawbridge was drawn up.

The likes of Sunderland, Newcastle, Burnley, or even a past winner of the European Cup Aston Villa and Notts Forest will never ever be able to compete at the highest level again, which is very sad imo.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

tolmie's hairdoo said:
Wilf Wild 1937 said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
Yes I think that's exactly what it means. Doesn't mean we can't include them in revenue totally.

That is specific to things like IP rights but other revenue streams such as sponsorship of the CFG were not on the table when we
drew up the last accounts. The fear is that UEFA may decide what it allows as MANCHESTER City's allocation of such monies and
what it deems to be the other CITY clubs' share.


If that is indeed the case, then City would have already pulled the plug with regards NYCFC and Melbourne?

There's absolutely no good reason for the City Football Group if it does not serve the ultimate goal of the queen bee.

Others can talk about a wider perspective, but there is no way City would believe that everything they are now putting in place will be black-balled on a whim by Uefa.

Sheikh Mansour, rich as he is, doesn't need to take a £200m gamble in other franchises, on a wing and a prayer.

Otherwise, he and we would have been better served spending that amount on lawyers and still had the spare change from a two-year Champions League expulsion.

I hear what you are saying and at the time it was announced that we had failed FFP and it was rumoured that it was because of
the sale of the IP rights to other parts of the City Group I said that we had to fight. I said that I felt that our entire business plan
was under threat. I still feel that this is the case.

I do think though:-

1 Sheikh Mansour expects FFP to be declared illegal but would prefer Dupont to lead the fight, although we may well
be giving him support in the background

2 Sheikh Mansour can personally make money out of the other clubs in the CFG either directly or more likely indirectly
by developing relationships with the various local authorities in those countries. Long term he will certainly make more
money through his close relationship with Manchester City Council than his direct ownership of Manchester City
Football Club. The idea of developing sister clubs globally was I believe conceived by Ferran Soriano, specifically with the
intention of making money for the parent club but it's a concept that Sheikh Mansour could still use productively even if
that is not allowed. I think Sheikh Mansour's initial intention was and still is that CFG should primarily be about generating
money for Manchester City but at the end of the day he will be pragmatic.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

City's problem is that it's been (had to be) creative with some of its accounting... and that leads to the inevitable questions:-

Which items are 'creative' in order to circumvent / avoid FFP sanctions, and which are genuine creative new ways of making money?

Because of our profile, plenty of people will believe EVERYTHING is the former, and none is the latter, but few would ever believe it's all the latter.
And for the creative circumvention parts, people will still choose to see that as underhanded and 'bad' rather than a genuine attempt to interpret the rules in our favour. Essentially FFP 'avoidance' rather than 'evasion'. That's a very important distinction which should not be underestimated.

As things have panned out, we'll fallen a little shy of the FFP requirements and been duly punished. The reasons why we fell just shy are another debate entirely, but don't change the outcome.

So...

There are no rules that stop related party transactions - they happen all the time. The issue is that they are far more likely to be examples of creative accounting, and thus suffer more scrutiny/checks/balances. For instance, if MacDonalds decide to sponsor City, that's likely to be seen as a genuine 'free market' sponsorship, but if Bluemoon Burgers sponsor City - it becomes a related party transaction and UEFA try to assess if it's a deal that could just as easily have happened with an unrelated company. The chances are, they are going to take a fairly restrictive view of such transactions. They can't easily ban them, but they can argue they aren't worth as much as we say they are.

Therefore, when we come to related party transactions, they can't (easily) be used to funnel money into the club in a blatant manner that EVADES FFP regulations. We CAN still use our related parties to exchange services and goods in a manner that we might expect to see in the open market anyway, but instead of transacting with non-related parties, we transact with related ones instead, in order to benefit from the relationship.

In absolutely layman's terms:

I'm a plumber in England (Manchester City), my brother is a plumber in USA (New York City)

I CAN -
1) obtain some cheap plumbing gear from my brother in the USA, thus paying less than I might normally, but only at a price that's clearly available in the USA.
2) sell him some English goods, which he would otherwise have to pay more for in the USA.
3) teach him about how English plumbing techniques, and keep a lookout for any new English innovations (Scouting for plumbers!) and charge him for it (but I can only charge what another firm would reasonably charge)
4) pay for him to teach me about American plumbing techniques and keep a look out for new American innovations, but I can only pay him what I might expect to pay anybody else to do that.
5) let him use my logo (for a fee), because I own the design, and the Americans like 'Olde English Plumbing' type brands, and mine is well known. But I can only charge him an amount I might otherwise be able to get from another company.
6) make a profit on my transactions with my brother (but not over and above what I might have made with any other company, plus gaining from the 'benefit' of being related, which should see a reasonable benefit, nothing more).

I CANNOT-
1) get him to buy £100.00 quid's worth of plumbing gear and sell it to me for £1.00. That is not what any normal business would do, and it would be a clear attempt to reduce our costs, by using our related party to take the hit for us!.
2) buy a £1.00 washer in the UK, then sell it to my brother in the USA for £100.00, That is not the sort of profit a normal business would make on a sale, and would be a clear funnel money into the club with artificial profits.
3) claim to have sold him knowledge or services (or bought them) when they didn't really exist. That's simply lying.
4) invent new 'implausible' services which DO actually exist, but have no real value, and yet are sold (or bought) for profit
5) sell (or license) logos to him, for more than they are really worth.

These 'implausible' services, and 'more than they are really worth' is where related party transactions are ALWAYS going to be judged harshly. And in fairness to UEFA, it's right to look at them with scepticism.
A good rule of thumb will be that IF a club creates a truly new and innovate revenue stream, for whatever 'oddball' service it's providing, it's going to have to prove it works in the open market first, then move it to a related party to gain the benefit of being related. Otherwise, it simply can't demonstrate what a typical market value would be.



There is ONE obvious workaround to all of this, and I have no idea how UEFA stop (or attempt to stop) it:

1) A club has an owner who also owns a very profitable computer firm.
2) His computer firm offer to supply new computers to every Coca Coca office as long as Coca Cola agree to sponsor his Football Club.

This is a triangular transaction.
As far as UEFA see - Coca Cola and the club are unrelated parties. And whilst they seem to be paying over the odds for their sponsorship, it must be 'fair market value'
UEFA have NO jurisdiction over Coca Cola or the owner's computer business, both of which reside outside of Europe, and have an NDA in place for any business agreements they've entered into.

The example is just 3 companies, but it can become a chain of 'deals' that UEFA have no hope of finding, and some may as simple as a verbal 'understanding' between good 'friends' who happen to be owners of some very large companies, all sat around a bar in an exclusive gentleman's club.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

tolmie's hairdoo said:
Wilf Wild 1937 said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
Yes I think that's exactly what it means. Doesn't mean we can't include them in revenue totally.

That is specific to things like IP rights but other revenue streams such as sponsorship of the CFG were not on the table when we
drew up the last accounts. The fear is that UEFA may decide what it allows as MANCHESTER City's allocation of such monies and
what it deems to be the other CITY clubs' share.


If that is indeed the case, then City would have already pulled the plug with regards NYCFC and Melbourne?

There's absolutely no good reason for the City Football Group if it does not serve the ultimate goal of the queen bee.

Others can talk about a wider perspective, but there is no way City would believe that everything they are now putting in place will be black-balled on a whim by Uefa.

Sheikh Mansour, rich as he is, doesn't need to take a £200m gamble in other franchises, on a wing and a prayer.

Otherwise, he and we would have been better served spending that amount on lawyers and still had the spare change from a two-year Champions League expulsion.

Unfortunately that's exactly what I believe UEFA would do. They are completely in thrall to the rags, the dippers, the arse and the rest of the old guard, and as an organisation are quite simply without shame. Any concessions they make to us will be related solely to the perceived risk of litigation involved
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Mr Ed (The Stables) said:
cityboy2602 said:
Wilf Wild 1937 said:
Personally I think we are waiting for the Dupont case to rule this whole fiasco illegal. I think that the club are confident that
Dupont will win, as am I. From what we know the club's gut feeling was to fight this (and probably miss this year's CL) but
pressure was put on them by our sponsors not to. I agree with acton28 that in any sane world we should be held up by UEFA
as the role model of how to revive a fallen giant in a way that not only makes the club competitive again after decades of failure
but that benefits the whole community. The problem as we all know is that UEFA is run by the G14 who have no desire to see
City, Everton, Hamburg, Valencia or whoever threaten their domination.

I thought the Dupont case got thrown out? <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/20/uefa-defeats-financial-fair-play-challenge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... -challenge</a>


My understanding is it wasn't thrown out but referred back to the original Court in which it was brought, and the legal process dealt with through that Court.

This will be decided in Spring next year sometime. IMO he will win and that will throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

I'm just glad that we made it into the castle keep before the drawbridge was drawn up.

The likes of Sunderland, Newcastle, Burnley, or even a past winner of the European Cup Aston Villa and Notts Forest will never ever be able to compete at the highest level again, which is very sad imo.

That isn't true they can compete at the highest level but it has been made much much harder
If any club was to bring through their own ranks a world class side money wouldn't be an issue just holding on to the youngsters whilst they progress

not easy or expected but not impossible (even if only just possible)
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

Exeter Blue I am here said:
tolmie's hairdoo said:
Wilf Wild 1937 said:
That is specific to things like IP rights but other revenue streams such as sponsorship of the CFG were not on the table when we
drew up the last accounts. The fear is that UEFA may decide what it allows as MANCHESTER City's allocation of such monies and
what it deems to be the other CITY clubs' share.


If that is indeed the case, then City would have already pulled the plug with regards NYCFC and Melbourne?

There's absolutely no good reason for the City Football Group if it does not serve the ultimate goal of the queen bee.

Others can talk about a wider perspective, but there is no way City would believe that everything they are now putting in place will be black-balled on a whim by Uefa.

Sheikh Mansour, rich as he is, doesn't need to take a £200m gamble in other franchises, on a wing and a prayer.

Otherwise, he and we would have been better served spending that amount on lawyers and still had the spare change from a two-year Champions League expulsion.

Unfortunately that's exactly what I believe UEFA would do. They are completely in thrall to the rags, the dippers, the arse and the rest of the old guard, and as an organisation are quite simply without shame. Any concessions they make to us will be related solely to the perceived risk of litigation involved


I disagree a bit with this... and here's why....

UEFA are driven by money. The G14 (as was) are driven by money. The thing they fear is upstart clubs coming to the table and taking AWAY a slice of their money.
But like any set of bandits, they are always interested in how you can bring something to the table to make THEM more money... and that's what City might be able to do soon.

If City start to prove themselves as a real 'pull' for Champions League, and sponsors start commenting on desire for clubs like City to be there, they'll change their tune.

The old G14 are still in a mode of thinkiing clubs like Liverpool bring more to the table of CL glamour (and this more revenue), but they seem to have accepted that Chelsea are now a better option to join their merry band than Liverpool are.

The G14 will eat their own to make a bigger profit for themselves. They'll throw the weakest member overboard in order to bring onboard a new one. Give it time, and they'll want City over some of their weaker members.
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

whp.blue said:
Mr Ed (The Stables) said:
cityboy2602 said:
I thought the Dupont case got thrown out? <a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/20/uefa-defeats-financial-fair-play-challenge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... -challenge</a>


My understanding is it wasn't thrown out but referred back to the original Court in which it was brought, and the legal process dealt with through that Court.

This will be decided in Spring next year sometime. IMO he will win and that will throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

I'm just glad that we made it into the castle keep before the drawbridge was drawn up.

The likes of Sunderland, Newcastle, Burnley, or even a past winner of the European Cup Aston Villa and Notts Forest will never ever be able to compete at the highest level again, which is very sad imo.

That isn't true they can compete at the highest level but it has been made much much harder
If any club was to bring through their own ranks a world class side money wouldn't be an issue just holding on to the youngsters whilst they progress

not easy or expected but not impossible (even if only just possible)

And that's one of the crux issues though... yes it's still technically possible, but if a group of clubs (or under the guise of UEFA) conspire to create a set of rules that severely diminishes competition, and cannot persuade a court is for the general welfare of the industry and consumer at large, then it has a problem.

They effectively deliberately create a barrier to entry.
It's like Warburtons and Tesco deciding that you have to 'earn' the right to buy an industrial breadmaker. Local bakers can't afford such a machine from the profits they make doing it by hand. IF they could borrow 100K to buy the machine, they could soon pay it back and compete with Warburtons and Tesco.

UEFA will argue that unfair competition (rich owners) devalues the sport and that's why they are 'safeguarding' the integrity of the game, which is a BENEFIT to consumers. In addition, they are preventing clubs from overstretching their finances and keeping more clubs in business.

It's easy for us to say UEFA are wrong, and we are right, but the arguments on both sides are quite strong (that's even before you start to look at how they go about implementing their 'safeguards').

Personally I expect FFP in principle will be approved by most courts, but the methods will be scrutinised and some aspects will be deemed illegal, or inappropriate. I can't see any ruling deeming it ALL to be wrong and totally scrapped, I just think it will be 'changed' (potentially significantly, and in our favour, but it could even get worse for us).

Remember, right now, and without FFP, one of our key advantages IS spending power. If the courts ruled that spending should be capped, even at Real, United, Barca et all, then we lose a lot of that advantage - and they have the advantage in 'heritage'.

We have to be very careful that changes to FFP don't end up being even worse for us!
 
Re: City & FFP (continued)

This homegrown rule is baffling to me. We need a certain amount in our champions league squad but have let Barry and lescott go. Milner and Richards appear both soon to follow. Yet every player we have signed is from abroad. Hard to get my head around it.
 

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