City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

FanchesterCity said:
I absolutely sympathise with many of your points, because, as we both know, FFP isn't really doing the job that UEFA claim.
I differ from you in that I think the battle to defeat it will be more complex.

Formula One has spending limits. So there's a precedent for sport putting spending limits on teams. What good it's actually done Formula One is another matter!.... but other sports have had spending restrictions applied... either in terms of how much you can spend on the development of the team, or on how much you can spend on salaries (as a combined unit).

We also have to deal with the slightly banal argument that UEFA could put forwards... 'we aren't FORCING you to take part in our competition', We are, in theory, able to go and form some other competition, or a breakaway league. It's not a very practical option, but they can certainly make that argument. They aren't forcing any club to do anything.

We can demonstrate all the great things we've done - beautiful stadium, amazing training facilities, community involvement etc, and UEFA can say 'that's great, that's precisely how we want to steer investment, back into facilities and opportunities'. Cheeky of them, but no doubt they've got cheek enough to say it.

UEFA are never going to mention any specific club in their general chat about FFP, after all, even if it was specifically targeting certain clubs, they can't admit that!... they are always going to use general terms.

They'll also cheekily say 'since their investment, City have won 4 trophies and partaken in CL almost every year, and were it not for FFP, there's a very real danger they'd have become too dominant'. I KNOW it's a bloody cheek, but it's what they'll say. They'll also say, despite FFP, we have managed to do that, thus proving success is still possible, even with restrictions!

In our favour, we can demonstrate that the consumer has not seen any significant benefit. TV subscription prices have not fallen, not have ticket prices or merchandise costs'. in UEFA's favour they'll say that football's now available through even more channel, more accessible across the world, with revenues rising and more fans watching, and *cough* no teams have dominated.

They'll also say that UEFA didn't act arbitrarily, but acted on behalf of the industry who asked for regulation. The clubs themselves wanted it. Of course, we all know that was a limited subset of clubs, most of whom could be accused of merely protecting themselves.

They'll probably say that it's too soon to judge the effects of FFP yet - which could be a great point for us to use against them.... what studies did they carry out prior to developing the rules? what other measures did they consider (if any)? Why were they ruled out? etc. I think there's a very good argument to say they could have introduced far less stringent controls first, and adjust those accordingly over a period of time, not jump right in with pretty heavy restrictions.
They've also paid absolutely no heed to debt levels (I agree with you on that entirely). Debt's not necessarily bad, but debt, is essentially a risk, and large debt is a large risk. The staggering avoidance of tackling that won't look good in court.

I don't know if we're getting anywhere discussing these aspects forever. We'll say one thing, UEFA will say another until the cows come home, or someone puts a stop to them.
Surely the restriction of spending in F1 and the likes of the salary cap in the NFL , for example, have to be agreed by every participating member of said groups or organisations and not just supported by a handful of interested parties to be used to limit others in the same market from becoming competitive, which would make the point of "precedence" redundant in this case. For uefa to try and imply that it was demanded by the clubs is not strictly accurate, or as you could say , an untruth.
And surely too, they could not say that without FFP , we "would" or "could" have become dominant, as that would require a good deal of speculation which could not be allowed in any court.
 
Bodicoteblue said:
FanchesterCity said:
I absolutely sympathise with many of your points, because, as we both know, FFP isn't really doing the job that UEFA claim.
I differ from you in that I think the battle to defeat it will be more complex.

Formula One has spending limits. So there's a precedent for sport putting spending limits on teams. What good it's actually done Formula One is another matter!.... but other sports have had spending restrictions applied... either in terms of how much you can spend on the development of the team, or on how much you can spend on salaries (as a combined unit).

We also have to deal with the slightly banal argument that UEFA could put forwards... 'we aren't FORCING you to take part in our competition', We are, in theory, able to go and form some other competition, or a breakaway league. It's not a very practical option, but they can certainly make that argument. They aren't forcing any club to do anything.

We can demonstrate all the great things we've done - beautiful stadium, amazing training facilities, community involvement etc, and UEFA can say 'that's great, that's precisely how we want to steer investment, back into facilities and opportunities'. Cheeky of them, but no doubt they've got cheek enough to say it.

UEFA are never going to mention any specific club in their general chat about FFP, after all, even if it was specifically targeting certain clubs, they can't admit that!... they are always going to use general terms.

They'll also cheekily say 'since their investment, City have won 4 trophies and partaken in CL almost every year, and were it not for FFP, there's a very real danger they'd have become too dominant'. I KNOW it's a bloody cheek, but it's what they'll say. They'll also say, despite FFP, we have managed to do that, thus proving success is still possible, even with restrictions!

In our favour, we can demonstrate that the consumer has not seen any significant benefit. TV subscription prices have not fallen, not have ticket prices or merchandise costs'. in UEFA's favour they'll say that football's now available through even more channel, more accessible across the world, with revenues rising and more fans watching, and *cough* no teams have dominated.

They'll also say that UEFA didn't act arbitrarily, but acted on behalf of the industry who asked for regulation. The clubs themselves wanted it. Of course, we all know that was a limited subset of clubs, most of whom could be accused of merely protecting themselves.

They'll probably say that it's too soon to judge the effects of FFP yet - which could be a great point for us to use against them.... what studies did they carry out prior to developing the rules? what other measures did they consider (if any)? Why were they ruled out? etc. I think there's a very good argument to say they could have introduced far less stringent controls first, and adjust those accordingly over a period of time, not jump right in with pretty heavy restrictions.
They've also paid absolutely no heed to debt levels (I agree with you on that entirely). Debt's not necessarily bad, but debt, is essentially a risk, and large debt is a large risk. The staggering avoidance of tackling that won't look good in court.

I don't know if we're getting anywhere discussing these aspects forever. We'll say one thing, UEFA will say another until the cows come home, or someone puts a stop to them.
Surely the restriction of spending in F1 and the likes of the salary cap in the NFL , for example, have to be agreed by every participating member of said groups or organisations and not just supported by a handful of interested parties to be used to limit others in the same market from becoming competitive, which would make the point of "precedence" redundant in this case. For uefa to try and imply that it was demanded by the clubs is not strictly accurate, or as you could say , an untruth.
And surely too, they could not say that without FFP , we "would" or "could" have become dominant, as that would require a good deal of speculation which could not be allowed in any court.

Yes and no. Some F1 teams weren't happy with it, but it happened anyway, and now there are new teams entering the game who are against parts of it.
The precedent is that financial restrictions on sports teams can happen. It's not de facto 'illegal'. If agreed and implemented appropriately it's allowed.
You are absolutely right that we could challenge who exactly agreed to it.... it can't possibly have been all clubs, and was most likely the established big boys (what a surprise). So I think we can't say restrictions are wrong 'just because', but we could say they are wrong because of the process they took on deciding to implement them, let alone how they then chose to implement them.
It's not necessary for EVERY club to agree on it though. Otherwise you can end up with one club blocking everything. But there has to be a process that the courts deem fair and representative of 'the whole' and that UEFA's restrictions are proportional and appropriate to the problem. I actually find the fact they FINE clubs for taking financial risks (in their eyes) laughable, and only serves to weaken the case that they are operating the best interests of financial stability. They exacerbate the problem with a fine!

I agree the 'demanded by the clubs' would be an untruth. UEFA like to say they represented the clubs who wanted regulation to be put in place, we'd have to show it was only some clubs, and it was in their self interests. I think we could demonstrate that pretty well.
I think there's also plenty of evidence on our side to suggest the financial problems that some clubs encountered were entirely of their own making. and like any normal business, they probably should have gone to the wall as a result. Is it really UEFA's role to manage negligence? I don't think so. I think it's their role to help serve a football industry that is taking measures to help itself, not offer protectionist measures to limit competition.

I think whenever you implement a new rule, it's either going to be retrospective (as in stopping a problem that exists) or proactive (stopping a potential problem occurring). You're bang on to say the proactive view is a lot harder to prove. It's speculation. UEFA will most likely make out their actions are more retrospective in light of the financial difficulties clubs were finding themselves in, but in order to stop it continuing, big spending and 'risk taking' had to stop. I still think they will claim that without FFP, we'd have spent far more. Most of the non City supporting public would probably go along with that, and I think a judge would believe it too. However I find it much harder to believe a judge would accept that would make us dominant to the point of being a threat to the game. That really is highly speculative.


In our defence, there's no risk!... we aren't taking on debt to gamble on success, and yet we were punished for it. Other clubs do take on debt to sustain success and that goes without punishment. It doesn't really stack up well for UEFA (imo). I still think they will claim sugar daddy type investment poses a threat and creates imbalance. The evidence is weak, but they'll use every argument they can right?

If I'm 100% honest, I think the principle of FFP appeals to most. Making things 'fairer' is always going to win votes.
How UEFA have chosen to implement though, is far from fair, far from proportionate, and almost certainly has precisely the opposite effect than that which they claim to have set out to resolve.
 
I hope we can spend what we need to this summer, FFP had a huge effect on us last year. Am I right in thinking the shackles may well be off this summer? Enabling us to spend around £150m which would put us right back in the hunt
 
FanchesterCity said:
Bodicoteblue said:
FanchesterCity said:
I absolutely sympathise with many of your points, because, as we both know, FFP isn't really doing the job that UEFA claim.
I differ from you in that I think the battle to defeat it will be more complex.

Formula One has spending limits. So there's a precedent for sport putting spending limits on teams. What good it's actually done Formula One is another matter!.... but other sports have had spending restrictions applied... either in terms of how much you can spend on the development of the team, or on how much you can spend on salaries (as a combined unit).

We also have to deal with the slightly banal argument that UEFA could put forwards... 'we aren't FORCING you to take part in our competition', We are, in theory, able to go and form some other competition, or a breakaway league. It's not a very practical option, but they can certainly make that argument. They aren't forcing any club to do anything.

We can demonstrate all the great things we've done - beautiful stadium, amazing training facilities, community involvement etc, and UEFA can say 'that's great, that's precisely how we want to steer investment, back into facilities and opportunities'. Cheeky of them, but no doubt they've got cheek enough to say it.

UEFA are never going to mention any specific club in their general chat about FFP, after all, even if it was specifically targeting certain clubs, they can't admit that!... they are always going to use general terms.

They'll also cheekily say 'since their investment, City have won 4 trophies and partaken in CL almost every year, and were it not for FFP, there's a very real danger they'd have become too dominant'. I KNOW it's a bloody cheek, but it's what they'll say. They'll also say, despite FFP, we have managed to do that, thus proving success is still possible, even with restrictions!

In our favour, we can demonstrate that the consumer has not seen any significant benefit. TV subscription prices have not fallen, not have ticket prices or merchandise costs'. in UEFA's favour they'll say that football's now available through even more channel, more accessible across the world, with revenues rising and more fans watching, and *cough* no teams have dominated.

They'll also say that UEFA didn't act arbitrarily, but acted on behalf of the industry who asked for regulation. The clubs themselves wanted it. Of course, we all know that was a limited subset of clubs, most of whom could be accused of merely protecting themselves.

They'll probably say that it's too soon to judge the effects of FFP yet - which could be a great point for us to use against them.... what studies did they carry out prior to developing the rules? what other measures did they consider (if any)? Why were they ruled out? etc. I think there's a very good argument to say they could have introduced far less stringent controls first, and adjust those accordingly over a period of time, not jump right in with pretty heavy restrictions.
They've also paid absolutely no heed to debt levels (I agree with you on that entirely). Debt's not necessarily bad, but debt, is essentially a risk, and large debt is a large risk. The staggering avoidance of tackling that won't look good in court.

I don't know if we're getting anywhere discussing these aspects forever. We'll say one thing, UEFA will say another until the cows come home, or someone puts a stop to them.
Surely the restriction of spending in F1 and the likes of the salary cap in the NFL , for example, have to be agreed by every participating member of said groups or organisations and not just supported by a handful of interested parties to be used to limit others in the same market from becoming competitive, which would make the point of "precedence" redundant in this case. For uefa to try and imply that it was demanded by the clubs is not strictly accurate, or as you could say , an untruth.
And surely too, they could not say that without FFP , we "would" or "could" have become dominant, as that would require a good deal of speculation which could not be allowed in any court.

Yes and no. Some F1 teams weren't happy with it, but it happened anyway, and now there are new teams entering the game who are against parts of it.
The precedent is that financial restrictions on sports teams can happen. It's not de facto 'illegal'. If agreed and implemented appropriately it's allowed.


.

So it's not been legally challenged then? So not a legal precedent?
 
City_Sean said:
I hope we can spend what we need to this summer, FFP had a huge effect on us last year. Am I right in thinking the shackles may well be off this summer? Enabling us to spend around £150m which would put us right back in the hunt

Just the ability to spend big doesnt help. The transfers that are as good as Chelsea showed, Fabregas, Costa, Matic, arriving and doing top form right away, now those help a team big time...

We need to spend big, thats true, but way more important to spend well.
 
I can't believe people are having a go at Kompany for talking about FFP in a newspaper article.

The notion that he would have done so without the express consent of the club descends into the realm of the absurd. It is quite possible that he has, in actual fact, done so at the club's behest.

Accordingly, he is beyond reproach in that regard.
 
City_Sean said:
I hope we can spend what we need to this summer, FFP had a huge effect on us last year. Am I right in thinking the shackles may well be off this summer? Enabling us to spend around £150m which would put us right back in the hunt

The club says we'll be free of restriction this summer (other than the normal FFP rules everybody has to fall in line with).
We won't know for sure until someone makes a formal announcement, or it becomes self evident when we start spending a load.

I get the feeling UEFA won't want to make a formal announcement. They were all for shouting about how they'd punished us, but won't be so keen to announce the lifting of restrictions. Good old UEFA.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I can't believe people are having a go at Kompany for talking about FFP in a newspaper article.

The notion that he would have done so without the express consent of the club descends into the realm of the absurd. It is quite possibly that he has, in actual fact, done so at the club's behest.

Accordingly, he is beyond reproach in that regard.
Always liked you.
 
Pablo1 said:
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I can't believe people are having a go at Kompany for talking about FFP in a newspaper article.

The notion that he would have done so without the express consent of the club descends into the realm of the absurd. It is quite possibly that he has, in actual fact, done so at the club's behest.

Accordingly, he is beyond reproach in that regard.
Always liked you.
You're a man of discernible taste.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I can't believe people are having a go at Kompany for talking about FFP in a newspaper article.

The notion that he would have done so without the express consent of the club descends into the realm of the absurd. It is quite possibly that he has, in actual fact, done so at the club's behest.

Accordingly, he is beyond reproach in that regard.

It's open season on Vinny at the moment because he hasn't had the best of seasons. Talk about fickle eh?
 

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