City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

[Chris in London]

One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.

Brilliant post and very valid point.................

I've wondered about that too. Suppose the rags really did go on a £200m spending binge to rebuild their squad, then would they too be in danger of breaching these rules?

They're alright.

They won't be in Europe for the next three years :)

 

[inbetween]

One of the main things that is very odd about FFPR is that "spend what you earn" sentiment, here's a hypothetical scenario.

A hugely successful team, has profits in the hundreds of millions year in year out, stockpiles that money in the bank and have cash reserves that will last for years. yet "spend what you earn" would suggest if that team started to lose money year in year out but still have hundreds of millions in the bank that they could fall foul of the FFPR rules because they have spent more in that year than they earned.

Brilliant post and very valid point.................

I've wondered about that too. Suppose the rags really did go on a £200m spending binge to rebuild their squad, then would they too be in danger of breaching these rules?

That is certainly true.

United project their revenue for the year as £420Million-ish according to a recent article. Providing they don't win the Champions League then we can assume that figure isn't going to change due to team performance. Now the only profit figure I can find on them is Summer to December 13 which is a paltry £19M despite winning the league and this does not include the Mata buy. Expanding on that further and you can call it £40M profit on a turnover of £420M. That doesn't represent cash but it shows that they are keeping their heads just above the water and If they then do not qualify for the Champions League it all goes to pot. It gets even worst for them that further monitoring periods require clubs to practically be in the black. They do not have a hope in hell of spending anywhere near £200M, they'd be lucky to be able to squeeze £100M and they also now have Rooney's ridiculous contract on their books. Without the CL, United's income will fall dramatically, as will their transfer budget and essentially everything goes to pot. It would not surprise me that despite everything you hear, they will be desperate for that Europa League place.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Brilliant post and very valid point.................

I've wondered about that too. Suppose the rags really did go on a £200m spending binge to rebuild their squad, then would they too be in danger of breaching these rules?

That is certainly true.

United project their revenue for the year as £420Million-ish according to a recent article. Providing they don't win the Champions League then we can assume that figure isn't going to change due to team performance. Now the only profit figure I can find on them is Summer to December 13 which is a paltry £19M despite winning the league and this does not include the Mata buy. Expanding on that further and you can call it £40M profit on a turnover of £420M. That doesn't represent cash but it shows that they are keeping their heads just above the water and If they then do not qualify for the Champions League it all goes to pot. It gets even worst for them that further monitoring periods require clubs to practically be in the black. They do not have a hope in hell of spending anywhere near £200M, they'd be lucky to be able to squeeze £100M and they also now have Rooney's ridiculous contract on their books. Without the CL, United's income will fall dramatically, as will their transfer budget and essentially everything goes to pot. It would not surprise me that despite everything you hear, they will be desperate for that Europa League place.

Not really, mate.

They will be able to stand still without Champions League football next season due to the new TV deals kicking in. That will offset best part of £30-40m.

They are also losing big earners in Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra and will be selling deadwood such as Hernandez, Cleverley, Young, Kagawa and Valencia.

Rooney's new contract will be balanced out with that little lot, although the wage bill will soar again with the replacements.

I have it on good authority they had £140m set aside for new transfers, but that was before £40m on Mata.

Added to sales, their desperation, they will spend £100m plus, easily. Spending it might be a different matter, though.

Without Champions League football, they might have to blow that entire budget on two/three at best, just to make themselves more attractive.

I love how the M.E.N did a hit-list yesterday. Apparently you can get Vidal and Pogba for about £50m, haha!

Throwing in Mangala, Reus, Gundogan, Kroos, for another £50m!

 

[jimbopm]

Also, every smart club and agent will be able to sniff United's desperation a mile off by the time summer rolls around. With it being well publicised that Wee Davey has a large kitty at his disposal, clubs are going to be jacking up their valuations on United targets, they will come to the negotiating table from a very weak position indeed.

 

[mancity dan]

Also, every smart club and agent will be able to sniff United's desperation a mile off by the time summer rolls around. With it being well publicised that Wee Davey has a large kitty at his disposal, clubs are going to be jacking up their valuations on United targets, they will come to the negotiating table from a very weak position indeed.

Just like what happened with us when we first got taken over. There was a price for a player then a CITY price. Same will now happen to the Rags.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Also, every smart club and agent will be able to sniff United's desperation a mile off by the time summer rolls around. With it being well publicised that Wee Davey has a large kitty at his disposal, clubs are going to be jacking up their valuations on United targets, they will come to the negotiating table from a very weak position indeed.

If anything, smart players and their agents will use United's interest to get themselves better deals at their present clubs (Kroos) or get moves to clubs who play at a higher level and a manager they have heard of!

Thiago and Fabregas did this brilliantly last summer.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Re: City & FFP (updated)

Confused by the need to investigate 76 clubs. If clubs that did not qualify this year ( Liverpool) are exempt and only 64 clubs play in Champions League ( Some of who have no issue with meeting FFP). Where do the rest of the clubs come from - qualifying rounds?

 

[moomba]

Re: City & FFP (updated)

Confused by the need to investigate 76 clubs. If clubs that did not qualify this year ( Liverpool) are exempt and only 64 clubs play in Champions League ( Some of who have no issue with meeting FFP). Where do the rest of the clubs come from - qualifying rounds?

Qualifiers and Europa League I'm guessing.

 

[aguero93:20]

Confused by the need to investigate 76 clubs. If clubs that did not qualify this year ( Liverpool) are exempt and only 64 clubs play in Champions League ( Some of who have no issue with meeting FFP). Where do the rest of the clubs come from - qualifying rounds?

Liverpool aren't exempt, the 76 clubs are just the first batch as far as I know, it's anyone who didn't break even/ turn a profit in the first year (11/12) who is in a uefa competition this year. Most clubs lose money every year, even CL clubs, but the initial qualifying pool is where a lot of clubs come from, remember, there's more clubs in Europa League than Champions League and that's a UEFA competition as well.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

 

[squirtyflower]

76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

In that case Gill's recent comments were a bit of a 'faux pas'

 

[inbetween]

I've wondered about that too. Suppose the rags really did go on a £200m spending binge to rebuild their squad, then would they too be in danger of breaching these rules?

That is certainly true.

United project their revenue for the year as £420Million-ish according to a recent article. Providing they don't win the Champions League then we can assume that figure isn't going to change due to team performance. Now the only profit figure I can find on them is Summer to December 13 which is a paltry £19M despite winning the league and this does not include the Mata buy. Expanding on that further and you can call it £40M profit on a turnover of £420M. That doesn't represent cash but it shows that they are keeping their heads just above the water and If they then do not qualify for the Champions League it all goes to pot. It gets even worst for them that further monitoring periods require clubs to practically be in the black. They do not have a hope in hell of spending anywhere near £200M, they'd be lucky to be able to squeeze £100M and they also now have Rooney's ridiculous contract on their books. Without the CL, United's income will fall dramatically, as will their transfer budget and essentially everything goes to pot. It would not surprise me that despite everything you hear, they will be desperate for that Europa League place.

Not really, mate.

They will be able to stand still without Champions League football next season due to the new TV deals kicking in. That will offset best part of £30-40m.

They are also losing big earners in Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra and will be selling deadwood such as Hernandez, Cleverley, Young, Kagawa and Valencia.

Rooney's new contract will be balanced out with that little lot, although the wage bill will soar again with the replacements.

I have it on good authority they had £140m set aside for new transfers, but that was before £40m on Mata.

Added to sales, their desperation, they will spend £100m plus, easily. Spending it might be a different matter, though.

Without Champions League football, they might have to blow that entire budget on two/three at best, just to make themselves more attractive.

I love how the M.E.N did a hit-list yesterday. Apparently you can get Vidal and Pogba for about £50m, haha!

Throwing in Mangala, Reus, Gundogan, Kroos, for another £50m!

As if any of those players are going to want to play for a team that might just about at most be in with winning the FA Cup next year, it is certainly going to cost them a lot and they are also in direct competition with the likes of us. Take Mangala, we are already in the market for him and we can easily manipulate the price so that we either get the player or force United to pay a lot. I'd certainly also take Kroos and move Dzeko on, if any of these players are going to become available then United are going to face a fight and it will cost them big.

United have become a 2008 version of us having to pay over the odds to get players to budge... Albeit without a massive amount of money to back it all up. I've said it previously but the lack of vision at United now is astonishing, in the past they could somehow find an average player and turn him into a decent one. It wouldn't surprise me if Moyes went through the papers, had a look who everyone is after and decided he wanted them too!

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

In that case Gill's recent comments were a bit of a 'faux pas'

Never mentioned us by name, unfortunately!

He's still a non-executive director at United I see?

 

[PrestwichBlue2]

squirtyflower wrote:
tolmie's hairdoo wrote:
76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

In that case Gill's recent comments were a bit of a 'faux pas'




Never mentioned us by name, unfortunately!

He's still a non-executive director at United I see?



Does that not constitute a conflict of interest ??

 

[pavelsrnicek]

76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

In that case Gill's recent comments were a bit of a 'faux pas'

Never mentioned us by name, unfortunately!

He's still a non-executive director at United I see?

It's things like this that make me think more and more that from a practical point of view FFP is unworkable and ultimately (if necessary through the EU Courts of Justice) utterly unenforceable.

Straight off the bat the likes of Gill being associated with a club that could directly benefit from our exclusion is a problem for UEFA.
Secondly the sanctions don't appear to be well defined, i.e. clubs should know exactly what happens to them for breaches of the FFPR.
Third and most serious but least likely to be tested for a while are the very likely result that the ECJ would find that the FFPR in effect restrict competition and create a cartel. It doesn't matter that the rules aren't specifically designed to do this it is enough that they have that effect. It is also irrelevant the vague approval given by the EU Commission to FFPR as the ECJ makes its own decisions.
Finally the FFPR would also probably act as a restraint on trade for players contrary to EU rules (which actually may also be the case for the Homegrown rules)

 

[Newman Noggs]

squirtyflower wrote:
tolmie's hairdoo wrote:
76 clubs, my arse!

It's window dressing. They will do cursory glances over all but a few, to avoid making it look like their rules were designed to stop us and now PSG.

The 76 clubs line will give them enough time to go through our books with a fine tooth comb.

UEFA were forced to stop mentioning City in early interviews by their very own lawyers.

In that case Gill's recent comments were a bit of a 'faux pas'




Never mentioned us by name, unfortunately!

He's still a non-executive director at United I see?



Does that not constitute a conflict of interest ??

In the real world yes. In uefa land not a bit. I wouldn't put money on PSG being examined too closely. Along with the usual suspects (except Arsenal who joined later) who are promoting this gash, PSG were a member of the original G14 at whose behest the CL was formed.

 

[jaiden]

there is no doubt that FFPR are contrary to EU provisions on the free movement of workers, however, I'm pretty sure members of the of Commission have already shown support for the regulations? suggesting that if they were challenged in the ECJ then they would be deemed legal?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: City & FFP (updated)

there is no doubt that FFPR are contrary to EU provisions on the free movement of workers, however, I'm pretty sure members of the of Commission have already shown support for the regulations? suggesting that if they were challenged in the ECJ then they would be deemed legal?

It's wrong to say "there is no doubt that FFP is contrary to EU provisions..."

In the legal world there is always doubt. It seems that FFP is, on the face of it, contrary to Article 101 but UEFA could argue that the restriction of competition has actually benefited the game overall. The European Commission is not the ECJ and the fact that they support FFP does not imply that the ECJ would.

 

[Cobwebcat]

there is no doubt that FFPR are contrary to EU provisions on the free movement of workers, however, I'm pretty sure members of the of Commission have already shown support for the regulations? suggesting that if they were challenged in the ECJ then they would be deemed legal?

It's wrong to say "there is no doubt that FFP is contrary to EU provisions..."

In the legal world there is always doubt. It seems that FFP is, on the face of it, contrary to Article 101 but UEFA could argue that the restriction of competition has actually benefited the game overall. The European Commission is not the ECJ and the fact that they support FFP does not imply that the ECJ would.

Thats my take too but also that UEFA may have to prove that there isnt a better way and given that I think that the rules aren't designed to achieve what they say they, I think they might struggle. There are many better ways of achieving the same end than the FFPR which begs the question what are UEFA actually trying to do!? Hmmmm...

 

[blue order]

(Also posted under coefficient thread)....

The forty odd years I like many have stuck with City and seen what we have seen despite the 'Cinderella' moment in 2008 when the Sheikh took over and the fairytale since that great day, still leaves me totally cynical about what is round the corner with F (un)F P

There is an 'ugly sister' across town that cannot stand our success (cannot stand anyone's other than their own for that matter) and Gill notwithstanding his 'none executive' status is still very much an MUFC man through and through.

Maybe I am just deliberately expecting the worse (whilst hoping for the best) because it is kind of the way you prepared yourself as a blue through the 80's, 90's and 00's but, I believe that there is definitely a hidden agenda to get us banned from UCL.

I believe the tipping point is MUFC not qualifying and the money go round, TV audiences blah blah blah, hysteria that goes with it.

Gill first at the FA and now UEFA is I believe on a mission. To protect the interests of his own tw@t infested club through a role in its governing bodies. Why on earth would that deceitful bastard want the role? He is on secondment not a career change.

FFP in its current form is as we know a complete f*cking joke with one underlying objective.

It makes my blood boil that these corrupt wankers can get something so blatantly biased through. Even more so that it can go relatively unchallenged apart from Martin Samuel and to an extend Andy Jacobs (TS).

Look at the timeline : Everything formally kicks in as soon as the season ends. This will manifest itself early in the close season and I believe will certainly in our case be processed quickly Kangaroo court style . They have through the media / comments / interviews etc been grooming everyone for it since the start of the season but, there is a 3 month window for players/signings who goes where/who is in the UCL etc.

I read with great interest informed posts on the subject by the likes of PB and hope I am completely wrong and that the club do have it under control.

When you consider the hoo ha in society when it comes to corruption , bias and prejudice in other areas I think the club should if need be take this outside the football arena.

Mansour has invested billions not just in our beloved club but in the long term future of one of our major cities and most deprived areas. Through the local politician, house of parliament, MEP, then Euro parliament etc we should fight on the wider reaching International political stage everything that ponzi bunch of self interested, greedy , hypocritical corrupt f*ckwits throw at us from their ivory football tower!

Mods, move to F(un)FP thread if appropriate.