City launch legal action against the Premier League | City win APT case (pg901)

The evidence before the tribunal on this was quite interesting. The PL said that Newcastle was the catalyst but not the reason for the introduction of the APT rules in substitution for the previous RPT rules. They said that the prime motivator was to stop another Portsmouth.

Personally, even though the tribunal accepted that evidence, I would call bullshit on that. The one thing the APT rules would not do is stop another Portsmouth, because Portsmouth went over the edge precisely as a result of the owner called in all those interest free loans. Whether the loans were interest bearing or not is not the issue: as long as the owner of a company can make loans to the company that are repayable on demand, you run the risk of another Portsmouth, and it is irrelevant that the company is in the business of professional football, manufacturing widgits or professional tiddlywinks. So "we wanted to avoid Portsmouth 2" just makes no sense to me.

By contrast, to my mind it is plain that there has for some time been some considerable angst amongst the usual suspects that the long-established RPT rules set out in IAS24 did not cover City and Etihad. This can be seen in the request that was made just after the Newcastle takeover that the tribunal refer to for a rehash of the rules "to include the widest possible definition of what is a related party transaction". It seems likely the 'real' target of the APT rules was both City and Newcastle - City because the existing rules didn't stop us, and Newcastle because they were worried that they would end up having even more muscle than City.

But none of that is to say that there is any direct connection between the 115 charges and the APT rules. They are separate issues relating to different rules. The real connection may be that the motivation for both the 115 charges and the introduction of the APT rules may come from the same place. We have debated the technical deficiencies and hurdles the PL will have to get over in the 115 charges at some length and I don't think anyone needs to re-cover that territory. I think it is quite plain that a degree of pressure has been brought to bear for those charges to be brought, and it wouldn't surprise me if the reason for that is because of the usual suspects' frustration that the rules under which all clubs were operating until 2021 didn't actually achieve what those usual suspects wanted them to achieve. We all know the PL will struggle to land the major charges - maybe famous last words, I know, but that has been the mood music from a variety of sources for the last 2 years - but why else would you bring these Hail Mary charges?

The whole discussion around the necessity for APT was weird, almost as if the club was happy to accept what the PL was saying. I don't want to go over it again, but it struck me as odd at the time that the club wasn't more aggressive in putting their case there.

Couple of questions while you are here:

What chance does the club have, do you think, of having the APT rules voided since inception for the shareholder loan exemption?

And, assuming you think there is a reasonable chance, is there then any chance that the FFP rules could be similarly voided, if challenged, for the same reason?
 
I have no problem with American owners of clubs.
What I do have a problem with is those club owners getting together to change the make up of the league, removing the jeopardy from it and creaming off the cash.
An American dominance of the Prem is not a good thing.
A thought occurred to me while writing this.
Why don't the P/L make it a rule that only; say, 6 clubs could be owned by any one country - much like when individual clubs were restricted in the number of foreign players they could use?
Would this be possible, to stop the yanks in their tracks?
Remember the photo of the Cabal owners all eating together in a NY restaurant.....nearly TEN years ago.

Conspiracy in plain sight !!

"Once and for all"
Khaldoon al Mubarak
Manchester City FC.
 
The whole discussion around the necessity for APT was weird, almost as if the club was happy to accept what the PL was saying. I don't want to go over it again, but it struck me as odd at the time that the club wasn't more aggressive in putting their case there.

Couple of questions while you are here:

What chance does the club have, do you think, of having the APT rules voided since inception for the shareholder loan exemption?

And, assuming you think there is a reasonable chance, is there then any chance that the FFP rules could be similarly voided, if challenged, for the same reason?

Stefan has made the same point. The PL's evidence was clearly challenged by the club, that much is clearly stated in the judgment, as are the tribunal's reasons for accepting the PL's evidence. It seems however as though the club did not deploy every argument they might have: assuming that's right, they (the club) obviously had their own reasons for holding back on the challenge to the motivation. I wouldn't like to speculate on what they may have been - it might have been something as simple as a lack of time before the panel - but it does seem clear that they could have gone harder, further.

On your questions, there is a distinction between "void" and "voidable." The essential difference is that the latter is valid until set aside, the former is invalid from the inception. Whether a thing is void or merely voidable depends on what it is you have an issue with, and why.

In this case, it seems to me that the position is this. The tribunal found that the APT rules constituted a restriction on competition "by object." In competition law something can lawful for one of two reasons: "by object", namely the restriction was intended to have a particular effect, or "by effect", namely the restriction wasn't particularly designed to have that effect but the law of unintended consequences is at work. A good analogy exists in anti-discrimination law - for instance a regulation that is specifically directed a particular groups - women, LGBTQ+, BAME etc - would be directly discriminatory, that is discriminatory "by object" whereas something that was directed at (for instance) childcare provision would be discriminatory "by effect" because in practice childcare provision tends to be undertaken far more by women than by men.

In City's case, the ruling of the tribunal was that the APT rules were a restriction "by object." They were intended to have precisely the effect they did, and that effect was contrary to our competition law precisely because they allowed one form of owner subsidy and prohibited another. I personally don't see how rules that were intended to have an unlawful effect can be anything other than null and void from the get-go. So the answer to the first question is, IMHO FWIW, a very good one.

By contrast, I don't think there is any real prospect of challenging FFP. The reason the APT rules were found to be unlawful is not because the object of regulating the transactions between clubs playing in the PL and associated parties is unlawful in itself- neither was the previous regime which regulated transactions between clubs and related parties for that matter. But the way in which those rules were framed contravened the principle that if you are going to regulate in that manner, you don't do it in a way that favours some clubs but not others. I don't think FFP could be subjected to the same criticism.
 
The PL were told to throw the book at City in the hope something sticks. This is the last throw of the dice, so the PL have gone in big to hopefully land a punitive blow on City because the red cartel were rarely able to land a glove on City. 1 PL title for Luckerpool during covid and nothing from Man U and Arsenil for more than 10 and 20 years respectively. The PL are guilty of letting City Gate crash the party. Desperate times equal desperate measures. Pep's just extended. I don't think we'd have done that if we about to get expelled. Come on City. Let's beat the red cartel both on and off the pitch.
 
I have no problem with American owners of clubs.
What I do have a problem with is those club owners getting together to change the make up of the league, removing the jeopardy from it and creaming off the cash.
An American dominance of the Prem is not a good thing.
A thought occurred to me while writing this.
Why don't the P/L make it a rule that only; say, 6 clubs could be owned by any one country - much like when individual clubs were restricted in the number of foreign players they could use?
Would this be possible, to stop the yanks in their tracks?
Unlawful, breaks competition laws, I reckon.
 
Stefan has made the same point. The PL's evidence was clearly challenged by the club, that much is clearly stated in the judgment, as are the tribunal's reasons for accepting the PL's evidence. It seems however as though the club did not deploy every argument they might have: assuming that's right, they (the club) obviously had their own reasons for holding back on the challenge to the motivation. I wouldn't like to speculate on what they may have been - it might have been something as simple as a lack of time before the panel - but it does seem clear that they could have gone harder, further.

On your questions, there is a distinction between "void" and "voidable." The essential difference is that the latter is valid until set aside, the former is invalid from the inception. Whether a thing is void or merely voidable depends on what it is you have an issue with, and why.

In this case, it seems to me that the position is this. The tribunal found that the APT rules constituted a restriction on competition "by object." In competition law something can lawful for one of two reasons: "by object", namely the restriction was intended to have a particular effect, or "by effect", namely the restriction wasn't particularly designed to have that effect but the law of unintended consequences is at work. A good analogy exists in anti-discrimination law - for instance a regulation that is specifically directed a particular groups - women, LGBTQ+, BAME etc - would be directly discriminatory, that is discriminatory "by object" whereas something that was directed at (for instance) childcare provision would be discriminatory "by effect" because in practice childcare provision tends to be undertaken far more by women than by men.

In City's case, the ruling of the tribunal was that the APT rules were a restriction "by object." They were intended to have precisely the effect they did, and that effect was contrary to our competition law precisely because they allowed one form of owner subsidy and prohibited another. I personally don't see how rules that were intended to have an unlawful effect can be anything other than null and void from the get-go. So the answer to the first question is, IMHO FWIW, a very good one.

By contrast, I don't think there is any real prospect of challenging FFP. The reason the APT rules were found to be unlawful is not because the object of regulating the transactions between clubs playing in the PL and associated parties is unlawful in itself- neither was the previous regime which regulated transactions between clubs and related parties for that matter. But the way in which those rules were framed contravened the principle that if you are going to regulate in that manner, you don't do it in a way that favours some clubs but not others. I don't think FFP could be subjected to the same criticism.

But, FFP/PSR itself was not challenged, only the APT/FMV element, so that was not really considered by the tribunal.

I would have thought there may be potential to challenge current FFP/PSR on the basis that by object it is designed and has the effect of keeping the rich rich and the poor poor with no realistic prospect of any club outside of the 'big 6' ever bridging that gap.

I think it's pretty clear that PSR rules are a restriction on competition, it's whether that restriction would be deemed to be in the public interest that would be likely to be determinative if any club does eventually challenge the rules as a whole.
 
maybe the trick to challenging FFP / PSR won't be to attack the whole concept but instead to challenge specific aspects.

maybe challenging the reasoning behind stopping an obligation free cash injection from the owner of the club for instance?

it would make RPT and APT irrelevant mind you.
 
Stefan has made the same point. The PL's evidence was clearly challenged by the club, that much is clearly stated in the judgment, as are the tribunal's reasons for accepting the PL's evidence. It seems however as though the club did not deploy every argument they might have: assuming that's right, they (the club) obviously had their own reasons for holding back on the challenge to the motivation. I wouldn't like to speculate on what they may have been - it might have been something as simple as a lack of time before the panel - but it does seem clear that they could have gone harder, further.

On your questions, there is a distinction between "void" and "voidable." The essential difference is that the latter is valid until set aside, the former is invalid from the inception. Whether a thing is void or merely voidable depends on what it is you have an issue with, and why.

In this case, it seems to me that the position is this. The tribunal found that the APT rules constituted a restriction on competition "by object." In competition law something can lawful for one of two reasons: "by object", namely the restriction was intended to have a particular effect, or "by effect", namely the restriction wasn't particularly designed to have that effect but the law of unintended consequences is at work. A good analogy exists in anti-discrimination law - for instance a regulation that is specifically directed a particular groups - women, LGBTQ+, BAME etc - would be directly discriminatory, that is discriminatory "by object" whereas something that was directed at (for instance) childcare provision would be discriminatory "by effect" because in practice childcare provision tends to be undertaken far more by women than by men.

In City's case, the ruling of the tribunal was that the APT rules were a restriction "by object." They were intended to have precisely the effect they did, and that effect was contrary to our competition law precisely because they allowed one form of owner subsidy and prohibited another. I personally don't see how rules that were intended to have an unlawful effect can be anything other than null and void from the get-go. So the answer to the first question is, IMHO FWIW, a very good one.

By contrast, I don't think there is any real prospect of challenging FFP. The reason the APT rules were found to be unlawful is not because the object of regulating the transactions between clubs playing in the PL and associated parties is unlawful in itself- neither was the previous regime which regulated transactions between clubs and related parties for that matter. But the way in which those rules were framed contravened the principle that if you are going to regulate in that manner, you don't do it in a way that favours some clubs but not others. I don't think FFP could be subjected to the same criticism.

Thanks, clear as always.

Except for the last point :) If you have the time and/or inclination could you explain to a layman why, if the exclusion of fmv shareholder loan interest from the APT assessments makes the APT rules null and void, the exclusion of fmv shareholder loan interest from the FFP/PSR assessments does not? There must be some subtle difference I am missing ... not for the first time :)
 
Do they get sworn in before giving evidence in these hearings?

I don’t believe even the most blatantly biased fans of the red cartel would believe the rules were to stop another Portsmouth. Certainly not when their intention & desires appears to be to ruin City….

… And the rules actually do nothing to prevent another Portsmouth!!!
 

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