City Ownership

Chris in London said:
Some people were kind enough to write nice things about my long post in this thread yesterday. At some risk of self indulgence, there are a few points I would like to add.

First, I made a remark about Abu Dhabi being nothing more than a strip of land in the desert before they discovered oil there. When I re-read that this morning, it struck me how offensive that would be to anyone from Abu Dhabi, even though I had no intention whatsoever of being offensive. I actually know very little about Abu Dhabi's pre-oil history so am not really qualified to make that sort of statement, but quite apart from that it's a fairly disrespectful thing to say about an entire people, especially when you bear in mind what the ruling family there is doing for our club and our city. (My family is from east Manchester originally and many family members live only a tram ride away from the ground - well, they will do when the roadworks are finished). When you think about they way the ruling family in Abu Dhabi act generally, whether in relation to our club, FIFA/UEFA, the development of their Emirate/country or however, it is difficult to have anything other than the highest respect for them. However if you are unintentionally offensive you are still offensive, so for anyone who read what I said yesterday and thought it was disrespectful to Abu Dhabi or any of those who live there, I apologise for that, it was not at all what I intended.

The second thing is that I somewhat over-stated City's importance in the context of Abu Dhabi's economic development. It is a lovely mental image to think of Sheikh Mansour's family saying "thank God you bought City, for now we can still eat when the oil runs out" but it's just not like that. As has been said, the oil there isn't going to run out any time soon - I think current predictions are that it will last until well into the 22nd century - but perhaps a more realistic threat to Abu Dhabi's economy is increasing pressure on an international/inter-governmental basis to move away from fossil fuels. If your exonomy depends on one commodity and that commodity either falls away or demand for it falls away, you are knackered. Anyway, whatever the reason, the powers that be in Abu Dhabi have made a strategic decision to widen the basis of their economy, to make it less dependent on oil revenues, and eventually that long term planning is likely to pay dividends for one reason or another. Tourism and financial services are just two aspects of Abu Dhabi's highly impressive expansion programme.

The essential thought I was trying to convey was expressed rather more elegantly by hbruz80 when he said "the club makes up one small part of a larger sector (Sports and Media) which Abu Dhabi are concentrating on to diversify their economy". City, in other words, has a role in the overall development of the Abu Dhabi economy, which you might fairly assess as small but significant. In a similar vein, the actual economic impact of bringing the Olympics to London is in many respects limited, but there are a number of indirect benefits (raised profile, feel-good factor etc) which are important but not easy to measure in financial terms. Whilst City is miniscule in direct financial terms, it is a highly visible investment and is important for that reason - ditto the Olympics in terms of the UK economy generally.

The third point is where I part company with hbruz80. He suggests that the publicity value of buying City (for want of a better way of describing the intangible benefits owning the club brings) was something of an afterthought, and is in the grand scheme of things rather small beer. Certainly the outlay on City is a drop in the ocean of the overall resources available to this family, but I find very surprising the idea that this careful and prudent family, who have the strategic vision to develop a nation's economy and to lay out their scheme for doing that over a 25 year period, and who have access to the best advice money can buy, didn't appreciate the PR benefits of owning an English football club in terms of raising profile at the time the club was bought. I suppose that if you were there you know how it happened and if you weren't you don't, but I would be amazed if an important feature in the decision making process when the club was bought was not the potential for maximising exposure, and ultimately painting a consistently positive picture of Abu Dhabi.

Khaldoon himself is almost certainly far too modest to say so, but he is undoubtedly a Big Player in Abu Dhabi. As Hbruz80 said, Khaldoon is the Crown Prince's right hand man (he also pointed us towards the Abu Dhabi 2030 plan, and you dig that out you can get some impression from the introduction alone of how important a figure Khaldoon is there). If City was a relatively insignificant piece in the jigsaw, it would be surprising to see such a big player spend so much of his time overseeing this aspect of the project. It's a bit like David Cameron saying to Nick Clegg "you know what, Tameside council needs looking after properly, can you go up there and run it for me?" (okay, bad example). As I understand it Khaldoon has a number of other responsibilities, but he plainly devotes quite a significant amount of time to City, and if it was 'just another investment' it would be surprising that such an important figure spends so much time on it. In other words, there is probably a correlation between City's importance to Abu Dhabi's expansion and the identity of the person appointed as chairman.

The final point is Damocles' central concern about the connection between our club and possible human rights violations. I know little about the video link he posted, but I do know that within the middle east Abu Dhabi's human rights record is one of the best there is. In Yemen, if anyone is interested in the comparison, crucifixion is still part of the penal code, albeit only for piracy. Moreover, Abu Dhabi's human rights record, whilst perhaps not perfect, puts the record of many states beyond the middle east to shame. We can look within the EU for far more significant human rights violations. The royal family in Abu Dhabi is essentially the government, and it makes no sense to look at the ruling family there, in this context, on any basis other than that it is a government. Unfortunately, I doubt there is a government in the world which has a totally unblemished human rights record. For instance, elsewhere in this threat someone mentioned the assassination of Bin Laden. Whether it would have been preferable to put him on trial and eventually let him rot in a prison cell is an interesting debate, but it is well documented that the information which eventually led to his elimination originated in Guantanamo Bay, a place which exists for the sole purpose of allowing human rights violations to take place beyond the protection of the US constitution. The decision to mount the capture/assassination mission was directly taken by President Obama, so there is a direct link there between human rights abuses and the very highest levels of government in the US. Some might say the ends justified the means, but that's another debate. Our own security services have done and doubtless still do much that would give Amnesty heart attacks, and they do it in the name of Her Majesty, but you don't find them fussing about that at Newmarket when one of her horses romps home.

If there was any evidence of a connection between human rights abuses and City, we would all be concerned, and with good reason. But there is none, and to say that the connection is Sheikh Mohammed to my mind does not amount to much more than saying "governments sometimes do bad things". That is sad but undoubtedly true (certainly true of our own government) and is perhaps inevitable in the world in which we live.

Sigh.

If only I could express my thoughts so eloquently. (5*)

And people still pay money to buy papers.

Long live the 'free' internet and those that use it and write via it.
 
wow what a thread this is. i am still in benidorm and apart from using a stream to watch the bolton game i have only popped on to bluemoon briefly whilst using the hotel wifi supplied free.i have had to pop back to the internet cafe though to have my say in this thread as the iphone does my head in.

firstly to respond to people saying i repeatedly slag off mancini, not true, i slag off his tactics and his lack of know how in the english game, accepting he is new to our league i would have thought he would have leaned on kidd and co more often.if he repeatedly going to play that way then i will repeatedly post my dislike. now he seems to have improved his view off the game then i am more than happy to post on the forum praising him and have done.as for hating the man thats bollocks as i have always said i like him, i do like him as he has a class about him in the way he carries himself, ´carry on from where we left off not only will we really make a fist of a title challenge we can put to bed any change of manager shit.
now thats my take on the team the manager and so on,i didnt realise my opinions were lets say grating on people so much, nobody's opinion on here regardless of wether i agree or not has made me give them a second thought.its just opinion.weird.

i laugh at the talksport comparisions, i do like to tease now and again and yes if it gets the board flowing then good, bit like tolmie and the corrie babe thread.why should´nt we have a varied and busy board, its fun.
as a mod which by the way is a privelige imo we are here only to mod how a post or opinion is put across, someone in this thread has said they dont like me, thats fine, i dont know the guy buts thats his opinion he can post it in the context of my mancini ramblings thats fine by me, had he said de niro is a **** cos he slags mancini off then thats not acceptable, he would be warned just as he would with that type of post to any poster on any subject.

money, i have no clue on the money side of the site, i do know that in the early days ric shelled out plenty of money to keep this site going, we sold t shirts and such, we sold little usa flags in mary´ds to help raise the money towards rics costs.if he now makes a few quid out of it and i´m sure its not a fortune then bloody good luck to him, we have a tremendous forum here and despite conflicting opinions and the odd fall out its runs well and is very enjoyable.
if it comes over talksporty its pure coinsedence.

now as per the op i can´t believe we are talking like this on an open forum, we are feeding the media stuff they WILL use against us.we should really be getting rid of this thread, i know people dont want to but we have enough trouble fending off their agenda without stoking a fire for them to burn us with.

this is my beloved manchester city we are talking about and our club have had the best season since i was 22 years old and we should be rejoicing not moaning and shooting ourselves in the foot, manicini this, talksport that and now our owners may be iffy, fuck it all off and lets look forward to next season which in my opinion is only going to be better than this one.

we´ve waited a while, lets not spoil it.

these are only my opinion on things, if they offend i apologise in advance.
 
I can't see any paper printing or any media outlet discussing anything that has been posted in this thread as they would be torn a new arse in a court of law without definate proof, so I think it should be left where it is
 
de niro words,,

now as per the op i can´t believe we are talking like this on an open forum, we are feeding the media stuff they WILL use against us.we should really be getting rid of this thread, i know people dont want to but we have enough trouble fending off their agenda without stoking a fire for them to burn us with.

so please do us all a favour and delete it . you deleted far less
offending threads in the past haven't you ?
 
u2fme2 said:
de niro words,,

now as per the op i can´t believe we are talking like this on an open forum, we are feeding the media stuff they WILL use against us.we should really be getting rid of this thread, i know people dont want to but we have enough trouble fending off their agenda without stoking a fire for them to burn us with.

so please do us all a favour and delete it . you deleted far less
offending threads in the past haven't you ?


they talk the talk....but..
 
Longsight-memories said:
u2fme2 said:
de niro words,,

now as per the op i can´t believe we are talking like this on an open forum, we are feeding the media stuff they WILL use against us.we should really be getting rid of this thread, i know people dont want to but we have enough trouble fending off their agenda without stoking a fire for them to burn us with.

so please do us all a favour and delete it . you deleted far less
offending threads in the past haven't you ?


they talk the talk....but..

There are other mods will read this and between us may decide to move it, is it free speech or is it harmful? I go with the latter and have said so.
 
hbruz80 said:
To be honest I was expecting a few questions after listening to Mancini’s speech, although I did not expect this sort of inquisition (cue Monty Python jokes)!

Damocles, I thought the ownership structure has already been explained before, but I guess this was the reason why I signed up to Bluemoon in the first place so let me try to
make myself clear this time.

City is owned by Sheikh Mansour.

Khaldoon Al Mubarak is Chairman.

Mohamed Mubarak Al Mazrouei is on the Board.

The latter two work directly for the Crown Prince, this can be seen clearly from the positions they hold in Abu Dhabi, they are in effect his right hand men. They are at City to keep an eye on things and ensure that the ‘Project’ runs smoothly.

There is no way that Sheikh Mansour could have woken up one day and said hmmm this football ownership business looks like a hoot, where is my chequebook? Everything would have to be approved by the Royal Family and in particular Sheikh Mansour’s older full brother Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed (the Crown Prince).

The actual idea of owning an English football club was given to Sheikh Mansour by his father-in-law Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum (the ruler of Dubai) who as people are probably aware failed in a bid to purchase Liverpool via the Dubai SWF DIC. When other football clubs became available Sheikh Mohammed (the Dubai ruler) was made aware of this by Amanda Staveley (an advisor who is close to several Middle East Royal Families via here acquaintance with Prince Andrew). As he was no longer interested in buying a football club at this time (various reasons for which there is no reason to get into at this time) he recommended the notion to his son-in-law.

Damocles said:
I seem to remember reading that there's a mini-tradition within the Al-Nayhan family for owning football clubs? Sheikh Mohammed used to be the Chairman of one didn't he? Sheikh Saeed too?

It is not really a tradition, all the major clubs in Abu Dhabi are owned by members of the Royal Family because, well...no one else is allowed to own them

Now onto the tricky questions. The UAE like many countries has had its problems with Human Rights, this is not in dispute. However, many of the issues have been exaggerated and steps are constantly being taken to prevent such abuses from ever happening again. Nobody approves of human trafficking, abuse of labourers, prostitution etc, however, it is one thing to disapprove and another to stop them. The UAE is a new country and obviously has had some teething problems, however, in terms of the indigenous population, apart from Qataris, they are among the best treated locals in the world and the Royal Family unlike most governments are held in high esteem by the people. What I fail to understand is that there are no problems with Sheikh Mansour owing City but if it were his brother than it is unacceptable! Maybe, this is to do with the false notion that people seem to have of Sheikh Mansour just being a businessman who personally owns most Abu Dhabi linked businesses, be they Etihad or Ferrari*!

Maybe it is a false impression, but after my own readings on the Al-Nayhan family, I always believed that Mansour, whilst never directly speaking out about the abuses, had little that he could really do to change things until Mohammed moved into Sheikh Khalifa's shoes. As I say, maybe it's a misconception, but it's how I squared it.
I'm also not sure how you can say that abuses have been "exaggerated". This is the first time that many people on this forum would have heard of these, and the West's impression of UAE is a very rich, very clean and shiny place. The troubles and protest of the migrant workers there never really hit even page 26 of our newspapers, and I only really kept track of them as I use Al-Jazeera as a good source of news on the net.

You should read some of the rubbish written during the Dubai debt crisis, and even before that it was always a hot topic in the media when discussing the UAE.

Obviously people make money because of the positions they hold, whether that be a politician or a member of the Royal Family. Many members of the Royal Family hold government positions and run government entities but they also have their own personal wealth (again fine distinction but an important one).

The idea that I'm under, was that Sheikh Mansour bought City 100% through his personal wealth. If this is true, how does this square with your next statement of:

The bottom line is that without the Crown Prince City would not be in the position they are in today, Mancini simply acknowledged that fact.

I'm afraid that that bit has me confused. So he bought it out of his personal wealth and it is solely his property, but he must report all major decisions and investments out of his pocket to his big brother? Why?[/quote]

If Sheikh Mansour wants to buy a car, he can have a car, if he wants a new horse, he can have a new horse, if he wants to invest in a foreign football team and have Abu Dhabi plastered across the worlds sports pages, he requires permission! He also needed permission to skip a dinner held in honour of his father-in-law so that he could attend the City-Liverpool match. He is not the head of the family so that is how things work.

Didsbury Dave said:
Are you saying that City is ultimately there for profit as an entity on it's own, or is City a cog in the bigger wheel which is East Manchester's regeneration?

A bit of both. City is Abu Dhabi investing in sports, development of East Manchester is part of that investment and makes good business sense.

Now back to the reasons for the takeover, David Conn had an interview with Khaldoon Al Mubarak a while ago, in it he states:

...it would be logical to conclude that Sheikh Mansour...bought Manchester City to further this project, to promote Abu Dhabi to another worldwide audience, the one transfixed by the Premier League.

Yet Khaldoon said it was not intended to be so. The reasons, he explained, were twofold. Mansour believes City will be an investment, worth even more than he will have spent on it, if built into a top European club. But primarily, Khaldoon said: "Sheikh Mansour is a huge football fan. There is an enjoyment, a pleasure, which comes from owning it.

Nobody in Abu Dhabi would have appreciated the level of exposure and scrutiny that occurred after the takeover, which is why Sulaiman Al Fahim was initially tasked with handling affairs. When people started to get the wrong impression which reflected badly on Abu Dhabi, Khaldoon Al-Mubarak who is much more media savvy (courtesy oh him having a a former Burson-Marsteller executive as his right-hand man) had to be drafted in. If everything was handled well, it was hoped that City would lead people to have a good impression of Abu Dhabi and the UAE.
 
hbruz80 said:
hbruz80 said:
To be honest I was expecting a few questions after listening to Mancini’s speech, although I did not expect this sort of inquisition (cue Monty Python jokes)!

Damocles, I thought the ownership structure has already been explained before, but I guess this was the reason why I signed up to Bluemoon in the first place so let me try to
make myself clear this time.

City is owned by Sheikh Mansour.

Khaldoon Al Mubarak is Chairman.

Mohamed Mubarak Al Mazrouei is on the Board.

The latter two work directly for the Crown Prince, this can be seen clearly from the positions they hold in Abu Dhabi, they are in effect his right hand men. They are at City to keep an eye on things and ensure that the ‘Project’ runs smoothly.

There is no way that Sheikh Mansour could have woken up one day and said hmmm this football ownership business looks like a hoot, where is my chequebook? Everything would have to be approved by the Royal Family and in particular Sheikh Mansour’s older full brother Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed (the Crown Prince).

The actual idea of owning an English football club was given to Sheikh Mansour by his father-in-law Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum (the ruler of Dubai) who as people are probably aware failed in a bid to purchase Liverpool via the Dubai SWF DIC. When other football clubs became available Sheikh Mohammed (the Dubai ruler) was made aware of this by Amanda Staveley (an advisor who is close to several Middle East Royal Families via here acquaintance with Prince Andrew). As he was no longer interested in buying a football club at this time (various reasons for which there is no reason to get into at this time) he recommended the notion to his son-in-law.

Damocles said:
I seem to remember reading that there's a mini-tradition within the Al-Nayhan family for owning football clubs? Sheikh Mohammed used to be the Chairman of one didn't he? Sheikh Saeed too?

It is not really a tradition, all the major clubs in Abu Dhabi are owned by members of the Royal Family because, well...no one else is allowed to own them

Now onto the tricky questions. The UAE like many countries has had its problems with Human Rights, this is not in dispute. However, many of the issues have been exaggerated and steps are constantly being taken to prevent such abuses from ever happening again. Nobody approves of human trafficking, abuse of labourers, prostitution etc, however, it is one thing to disapprove and another to stop them. The UAE is a new country and obviously has had some teething problems, however, in terms of the indigenous population, apart from Qataris, they are among the best treated locals in the world and the Royal Family unlike most governments are held in high esteem by the people. What I fail to understand is that there are no problems with Sheikh Mansour owing City but if it were his brother than it is unacceptable! Maybe, this is to do with the false notion that people seem to have of Sheikh Mansour just being a businessman who personally owns most Abu Dhabi linked businesses, be they Etihad or Ferrari*!

Maybe it is a false impression, but after my own readings on the Al-Nayhan family, I always believed that Mansour, whilst never directly speaking out about the abuses, had little that he could really do to change things until Mohammed moved into Sheikh Khalifa's shoes. As I say, maybe it's a misconception, but it's how I squared it.
I'm also not sure how you can say that abuses have been "exaggerated". This is the first time that many people on this forum would have heard of these, and the West's impression of UAE is a very rich, very clean and shiny place. The troubles and protest of the migrant workers there never really hit even page 26 of our newspapers, and I only really kept track of them as I use Al-Jazeera as a good source of news on the net.

You should read some of the rubbish written during the Dubai debt crisis, and even before that it was always a hot topic in the media when discussing the UAE.

Obviously people make money because of the positions they hold, whether that be a politician or a member of the Royal Family. Many members of the Royal Family hold government positions and run government entities but they also have their own personal wealth (again fine distinction but an important one).

The idea that I'm under, was that Sheikh Mansour bought City 100% through his personal wealth. If this is true, how does this square with your next statement of:

The bottom line is that without the Crown Prince City would not be in the position they are in today, Mancini simply acknowledged that fact.

I'm afraid that that bit has me confused. So he bought it out of his personal wealth and it is solely his property, but he must report all major decisions and investments out of his pocket to his big brother? Why?

If Sheikh Mansour wants to buy a car, he can have a car, if he wants a new horse, he can have a new horse, if he wants to invest in a foreign football team and have Abu Dhabi plastered across the worlds sports pages, he requires permission! He also needed permission to skip a dinner held in honour of his father-in-law so that he could attend the City-Liverpool match. He is not the head of the family so that is how things work.

Didsbury Dave said:
Are you saying that City is ultimately there for profit as an entity on it's own, or is City a cog in the bigger wheel which is East Manchester's regeneration?

A bit of both. City is Abu Dhabi investing in sports, development of East Manchester is part of that investment and makes good business sense.

Now back to the reasons for the takeover, David Conn had an interview with Khaldoon Al Mubarak a while ago, in it he states:

...it would be logical to conclude that Sheikh Mansour...bought Manchester City to further this project, to promote Abu Dhabi to another worldwide audience, the one transfixed by the Premier League.

Yet Khaldoon said it was not intended to be so. The reasons, he explained, were twofold. Mansour believes City will be an investment, worth even more than he will have spent on it, if built into a top European club. But primarily, Khaldoon said: "Sheikh Mansour is a huge football fan. There is an enjoyment, a pleasure, which comes from owning it.

Nobody in Abu Dhabi would have appreciated the level of exposure and scrutiny that occurred after the takeover, which is why Sulaiman Al Fahim was initially tasked with handling affairs. When people started to get the wrong impression which reflected badly on Abu Dhabi, Khaldoon Al-Mubarak who is much more media savvy (courtesy oh him having a a former Burson-Marsteller executive as his right-hand man) had to be drafted in. If everything was handled well, it was hoped that City would lead people to have a good impression of Abu Dhabi and the UAE.[/quote]

If you think the takeover exposure was hyped, wait till we sign Cahill.
 

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