dontshootme said:I'm an Everton fan - I've been reading your forum on odds occasions for a while now - always interesting to read other fans point of view.
I don't think many Everton fans (or neutrals) would disagree - clearly, man for man, City have better players. I'd make this point though: Spurs have, for years now, been man for man better than Everton too. But football matches aren't played as 11 seperate matchups, they are played between teams.
A few people have pointed out that Everton are well drilled and organised. But there's a slightly more subtle point that I think most people (including journalists; actually especially journalists) miss: Everton are a very well balanced team. More than just working hard and being organised, the players strengths actually complement eachother. For example, Arteta is one of the best crossers in the league. By itself, that would be quite useful in any team, including City's. But we have Cahill and Fellaini playing centre mid and getting into the box at every chance. You might say you'd prefer Ireland to Cahill and you'd prefer Barry to Arteta. Individually, you might be right or you might be wrong, but an Arteta/Cahill partnership is among the most useful in the league in terms of effectiveness.
These are little things, but Everton have them all over the field. Baines and Bridge are both really good attacking fullbacks, but Pienaar is willing to track back 50 yards to fill in for Baines when he's out of position. Arteta, Baines and Osman are great crossers of the ball, and we have Saha, Fellaini, Cahill in the box. Fellaini requires defenders to stay very close to him because of his size and strength - and then we have Cahill whose main strength is arriving in the box unnoticed when defenders are otherwise occupied. Jagielka's blood and guts style complements Lescott's more measured approach. Only Neville is an actual ball winner in midfield, but the entire midfield getss in an organised formation to slow teams down. Tony Hibbert is...erm....well....hang on....ok, he's ugly and terrible at football, so he makes Phil Neville feel better about himself.
Similarly, you say Adebayor is a better player than Yakubu. This might be true (actually I'm not a huge fan of Adebayor, but if you had Tevez vs Yakubu I would have certainly said Tevez is a better player). Yakubu is not a great all round player. But as a pure goalscorer, Yakubu is better, and the statistics show it. Yakubu has a very marginally better goals per game ratio in England (about 1 in 2.5 games) than Adebayor, but he did that playing for Pompey, Borough and Everton. Adebayor scored about as often, but played for the most attack minded team in the country over the last 5 years. Tevez played for the best team in the country (sorry, but they did win the league!), and scored about 1 every 3.5 games - roughly the same that Cahill scores playing in midfield for a cautious team. If you are going to (correctly) point out that Everton's midfield isn't the most creative, you have to then give the strikers more credit for still scoring the goals.
Again, I'm not saying Yakubu is a better all round player, but he's better in the role of out and out goalscorer - which is the role he is asked to play at Everton. City have bought a lot of support strikers, hoping that getting goals from lots of places will make up for not having that one major threat.
I'm just not sure City have the same linkups as Everton yet. Sure, you've got everything you need in the SQUAD, but I'm yet to see a first choice XI that seems balanced. In the OP's 11, for instance, you have Adebayor up front, who is great in the air - yet there are no genuine wingers in the team. I'm sure you'll say that Tevez/Robinho/Ireland will supply them, but that isn't what they do. It's better to have a very good player doing what he does best (e.g. Arteta crossing) than a world class player being played slightly out of position (i.e. Tevez crossing). Otherwise you are just picking big names for the sake of it. I've seen other suggested 11s which basically include 4 defenders, De Jong, and 5 forwards.
This has been Everton's strength for years: having 11 players who each excel in some small role (even if they aren't great all round players), and letting them do that role; and then making sure that everybody complements eachother. The likes of Spurs have always had better players (man for man), but their team has always been really unbalanced, and there's no point having 11 better players if you can't play them in the same team.
Which is why I don't think you'll break the top 4 until 2010/2011. I do still think we'll finish above you this year (don't forget our injury decimated squad finished 5th last year - we aren't actually that bad a team), but you'll be much improved and you'll put the finishing touches on it next summer.
dontshootme said:I'm an Everton fan - I've been reading your forum on odds occasions for a while now - always interesting to read other fans point of view.
I don't think many Everton fans (or neutrals) would disagree - clearly, man for man, City have better players. I'd make this point though: Spurs have, for years now, been man for man better than Everton too. But football matches aren't played as 11 seperate matchups, they are played between teams.
A few people have pointed out that Everton are well drilled and organised. But there's a slightly more subtle point that I think most people (including journalists; actually especially journalists) miss: Everton are a very well balanced team. More than just working hard and being organised, the players strengths actually complement eachother. For example, Arteta is one of the best crossers in the league. By itself, that would be quite useful in any team, including City's. But we have Cahill and Fellaini playing centre mid and getting into the box at every chance. You might say you'd prefer Ireland to Cahill and you'd prefer Barry to Arteta. Individually, you might be right or you might be wrong, but an Arteta/Cahill partnership is among the most useful in the league in terms of effectiveness.
These are little things, but Everton have them all over the field. Baines and Bridge are both really good attacking fullbacks, but Pienaar is willing to track back 50 yards to fill in for Baines when he's out of position. Arteta, Baines and Osman are great crossers of the ball, and we have Saha, Fellaini, Cahill in the box. Fellaini requires defenders to stay very close to him because of his size and strength - and then we have Cahill whose main strength is arriving in the box unnoticed when defenders are otherwise occupied. Jagielka's blood and guts style complements Lescott's more measured approach. Only Neville is an actual ball winner in midfield, but the entire midfield getss in an organised formation to slow teams down. Tony Hibbert is...erm....well....hang on....ok, he's ugly and terrible at football, so he makes Phil Neville feel better about himself.
Similarly, you say Adebayor is a better player than Yakubu. This might be true (actually I'm not a huge fan of Adebayor, but if you had Tevez vs Yakubu I would have certainly said Tevez is a better player). Yakubu is not a great all round player. But as a pure goalscorer, Yakubu is better, and the statistics show it. Yakubu has a very marginally better goals per game ratio in England (about 1 in 2.5 games) than Adebayor, but he did that playing for Pompey, Borough and Everton. Adebayor scored about as often, but played for the most attack minded team in the country over the last 5 years. Tevez played for the best team in the country (sorry, but they did win the league!), and scored about 1 every 3.5 games - roughly the same that Cahill scores playing in midfield for a cautious team. If you are going to (correctly) point out that Everton's midfield isn't the most creative, you have to then give the strikers more credit for still scoring the goals.
Again, I'm not saying Yakubu is a better all round player, but he's better in the role of out and out goalscorer - which is the role he is asked to play at Everton. City have bought a lot of support strikers, hoping that getting goals from lots of places will make up for not having that one major threat.
I'm just not sure City have the same linkups as Everton yet. Sure, you've got everything you need in the SQUAD, but I'm yet to see a first choice XI that seems balanced. In the OP's 11, for instance, you have Adebayor up front, who is great in the air - yet there are no genuine wingers in the team. I'm sure you'll say that Tevez/Robinho/Ireland will supply them, but that isn't what they do. It's better to have a very good player doing what he does best (e.g. Arteta crossing) than a world class player being played slightly out of position (i.e. Tevez crossing). Otherwise you are just picking big names for the sake of it. I've seen other suggested 11s which basically include 4 defenders, De Jong, and 5 forwards.
This has been Everton's strength for years: having 11 players who each excel in some small role (even if they aren't great all round players), and letting them do that role; and then making sure that everybody complements eachother. The likes of Spurs have always had better players (man for man), but their team has always been really unbalanced, and there's no point having 11 better players if you can't play them in the same team.
Which is why I don't think you'll break the top 4 until 2010/2011. I do still think we'll finish above you this year (don't forget our injury decimated squad finished 5th last year - we aren't actually that bad a team), but you'll be much improved and you'll put the finishing touches on it next summer.
Blue Coop said:Excellent post to be honest. But i do disagree with a few points. Firstly, Adebayor. You say he is not an out and out goalscorer yet when you break it down, over his 3 years at Arsenal his Minutes on the pitch per goal average was 169.5 Minutes per goal. That betters a goal every 2 games. I understand he is in one of the most creative teams in europe. But hardly full of wingers with huge crossing ability are they now. They do however have a certain Mr. Fabregas who is excellent so we will see.
Blue Coop said:Fair enough, Robinho won't track back as much as pienarr [Sp] but now we have Barry, he will definatly give Bridge much more support than he had last year. Bridge faced alot of 2 on 1's last year from teasm attacking down the right, Barry will help prevent this. Allowing De Jong to help Zabeletta/Richards out more when they get forward from the right too.That to me looks like a fairly solid basis to work from, with Given ofcourse at the back that looks like it could just click, perhaps? :)