Citys quest to become new barca

[Didsbury Dave]

Obviously the use of a primary "club" system is a lot about continuity. Not just the grooming of young players into specific roles but the reduction of "dead wood" when we change manager.

I think we have bought a few players without natural fit into our system. Milner and Nasri spring to mind immediately. We've also bought a few full backs without attacking ability, when we need that desperately in the 4231. We have, however been playing 4411 recently.

Double edged sword, this. My instincts are that the manager is paid to organise the players into the right system for each game, and should be allowed free will to do so. Although I'm totally sure that even if we have a "club" system the manager will be allowed freedom to make changes as he sees fit.

But what happens if we make this change, the 433 doesn't work (and I see this as a real possibility with current personnel), we change to 442 and look the bee's knees. What do we do then?

 

[jonmcity]

Hope our quest is to be better than Barca, not to be just as good.

 

[bapi]

It's important to understand that this academy project is about next 10, 20, 30... years. Managers, players, everyone will change. Always.

With our current first team I think our most important moment was that home match against Dortmund. They were pressing our midfield very high and since that it was clear that we're too slow and not mobile enough to have good results against current top teams in Europe. And 4-3-3 is about fluidity, pace and movement.

 

[bapi]

Never been spoken about says Mancini

<a class="postlink" href="http://aggbot.com/Manchester-City-News/article/18827519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://aggbot.com/Manchester-City-News/article/18827519</a>

Mancini lied about Maicon and other things.

I think he just doen't want people to talk about systems like when he tried 3-4-1-2.<br /><br />-- Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:10 pm --<br /><br />

As for Mancini, I don't subscribe to that theory he can't accept a Director of Football. There are a lot of management tier systems in Italian football, and that's before any owner also pokes their nose in.

I think Mancini needs to trust and respect the people making vital decisions that impact him directly.

Agreed, though if the DoF tries to impose something he really doesn't agree with - even if he respects the man - there will be fireworks.

I suppose we saw at Newcastle and Norwich, a shift towards an attacking front three when Nasri went wide right.

Sadly, think it would see Yaya left totally exposed unless he gets someone who can run all day at pace and can recycle the ball.

So a player like Ramires, then?

Exactly like Ramires. Unfortunately, I think he's taken. Gerrard in his pomp would also have done the trick.

Koke from Atletico is the answer, for me.

 

[LHarper]

Never been spoken about says Mancini

<a class="postlink" href="http://aggbot.com/Manchester-City-News/article/18827519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://aggbot.com/Manchester-City-News/article/18827519</a>

Mancini lied about Maicon and other things.

I think he just doen't want people to talk about systems like when he tried 3-4-1-2.

-- Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:10 pm --

Agreed, though if the DoF tries to impose something he really doesn't agree with - even if he respects the man - there will be fireworks.



So a player like Ramires, then?

Exactly like Ramires. Unfortunately, I think he's taken. Gerrard in his pomp would also have done the trick.

Koke from Atletico is the answer, for me.

İlkay Gündoğan from Borussia Dortmund, for me.

 

[bapi]

Gundogan would cost 20+, I think. Will be easier to sign players from La Liga. With their debts and everything.

 

[Akira]

"Prepare. Attack. Destroy."

 

[brian the blue]

Out of the top 3 or 4 teams in the world at present, only Barca play 4-3-3 but I don't think it's fair to say it's the best formation to go with as they have Messi, Iniesta and Xavi which no other team in the world will ever have.

The other 3 teams - Real, Dortmund and Baryern (in my opinion) All play a 4-2-3-1 with 2 powerful/pacy wingers, a playmaker and a striker. Whereas we seem to use a variation of a 4-4-2 with 2 playmakers and 2 strikers.

In the summer I can see us letting the likes of Lescott, Kolarov, Balotelli, Sinclair, Maicon and Dzeko go. With us bringing in more mobile/technical players to fit a variety of systems. Our team at the minute is very much geared to how we play, so if we were to change that then it'd take buying a few new players and spending quite a bit of money (2 top wingers, 1 mobile/ball playing midfielder, 1 new leftback etc)

 

[kenzie115]

Regarding the Barca style, I think City have the most components apart from Messi

Valdez - Hart

Alves- Richards
Pique - Nastasic
Puyol- Kompany
Alba- Clichy


Busquets- Yaya
Xavi - Nasri
Iniesta - Silva


Sanchez- Tevez
Pedro - Aguero
Messi - ?

Maybe Suarez or Neymar for Messi ? :P

None of that midfield three would have the discipline to protect the back 4 like Busquets does. If we were to drop our players into Barca's formation it'd have to be:

Valdes - Hart

Alves- Zabba
Pique - Nastasic
Puyol- Kompany
Alba- Clichy


Busquets- Barry
Xavi - Yaya
Iniesta - Nasri


Sanchez- Silva
Pedro - Tevez
Messi - Aguero

(The front three are interchangeable, Silva's played the false 9 role for Spain effectively before).

Now it's not unlikely that the 11 City players above could be a starting XI for us, in fact, swapping Lescott for Nastasic, many would argue would give you our first choice XI from last season. The reason we don't play the same formation as Barca is that Silva and Tevez aren't as direct or quick as Sanchez and Pedro and as fantastic as Aguero is, he's sadly not Messi, so we've adjusted the system to fit our players, and Mancini decided 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-2 is a better fit for us.

 

[Anonymous]

mancini isn't going to admit to the press about anything going on behind the scenes.

 

[bapi]

Yeah, since Bayern signed Mandzukic they use 4-2-3-1 but used 4-3-3 last season, same with Madrid. I think it's not important if we'll call it 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. It's more about mobility, width. Probably we'll have to sign two wingers and two centre-midfielders but these changes should improve us in Europe.

 

[EricBrooksGhost]

Don't get hung up on formation when it comes to Barca. Part of their secret is discussed in an interesting conversation between Didier Deschamps and Jean-Claude Suaudeau in the Blizzard last year. Its more about constant movement of the ball and constant movement of people without the ball.

 

[bapi]

Regarding the Barca style, I think City have the most components apart from Messi

Valdez - Hart

Alves- Richards
Pique - Nastasic
Puyol- Kompany
Alba- Clichy


Busquets- Yaya
Xavi - Nasri
Iniesta - Silva


Sanchez- Tevez
Pedro - Aguero
Messi - ?

Maybe Suarez or Neymar for Messi ? :P

None of that midfield three would have the discipline to protect the back 4 like Busquets does. If we were to drop our players into Barca's formation it'd have to be:

Valdes - Hart

Alves- Zabba
Pique - Nastasic
Puyol- Kompany
Alba- Clichy


Busquets- Barry
Xavi - Yaya
Iniesta - Nasri


Sanchez- Silva
Pedro - Tevez
Messi - Aguero

(The front three are interchangeable, Silva's played the false 9 role for Spain effectively before).

Now it's not unlikely that the 11 City players above could be a starting XI for us, in fact, swapping Lescott for Nastasic, many would argue would give you our first choice XI from last season. The reason we don't play the same formation as Barca is that Silva and Tevez aren't as direct or quick as Sanchez and Pedro and as fantastic as Aguero is, he's sadly not Messi, so we've adjusted the system to fit our players, and Mancini decided 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-2 is a better fit for us.

When everyone's fit Sanchez is not in their starting XI and they use something like 3-4-1-2. Or 3-3-4 under Pep last season. It's about right players and their system is very dynamic. Luis Enrique tried to copy that with Roma and it didn't work at all. But Bilbao's more direct version of 4-3-3 worked very well in Europa League last season.

 

[JollyGood]

Yeah, since Bayern signed Mandzukic they use 4-2-3-1 but used 4-3-3 last season, same with Madrid. I think it's not important if we'll call it 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. It's more about mobility, width. Probably we'll have to sign two wingers and two centre-midfielders but these changes should improve us in Europe.

Bayern use both formations. It's less about the striker but more about who plays behind him. With Müller centrally behind Gomez it was something between 4231 and 442/424. With Kroos in that role it's close to 433. This season when Kroos is rested or misses the game usually Shaqiri plays in that position, then it's a clear cut 4231 probably comparable to Real with Özil in that position. Müller usually played that position as a second striker, moving a lot without the ball while Schweinsteiger along with both wingers act as playmakers. With Kroos in the team and Müller as a right winger, they try to control the midfield, less direct passing towards goal but more about posession, building up from deep and waiting for the best opportunity to attack. Kroos and Schweinsteiger then often switch positions and one of Gustavo/Martinez usually covers for them. Bayern will probably play an even more fluid midfield 3 with Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Martinez this year, maybe the closest thing to Barca when comparing midfields in europe.

Overall it shows that these formations are fluid, playing different players with different abilities in one position may change the whole approach, so it's not about calling it 433 or 4231 or 451 or 442 after all. Barca's acadamy is about teaching the technical basics, reacting quickly to new situations, smart movement without the ball. If your players are great at these things, you can throw them in any formation with the focus on passing and moving. That's the way City's acadamy should go, imo. And then it's not important if the manager let the team play in a 4231 or a 433 or even with 3 at the back (Guardiola had Barca play some amazing football (check out the first half of last seasons 8:0 vs Osasuna) with a 343/334 formation last season with totally different player movement compared to his 433 in 08/09 with Henry, Eto'o upfront and acadamy players worked fine in both cases). That should lead to setup where both, DoF and Manager, will be happy and where both can influence the future of the club without loosing out on their own ideas.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I doubt anybody is, which is the problem with the original article.

mancini isn't going to admit to the press about anything going on behind the scenes.

 

[coulsonblue]

This always makes me laugh.

Our so called 4-2-3-1 is nothing like. We play with 2 strikers, which makes us more of a 4-4-2, but without natural wingers who both switch sides, come into the middle etc...

Our forwards move into wide areas at times, so whilst we may look 4-2-3-1, the players, particularly front 4 can be in completely different positions at any one time during the game than they were at kick-off.

Therefore, even if we were a so called 4-3-3, we still wouldn't end up rigidly in that system. So really it's pretty pointless.

In fact, teams that rigidly stick to 4-3-3 are often some of the worst and stifle their own play. Brendan Rogers sticks rigidly to 4-3-3 to average results. (Liverpools success in their last few games has come with the greater flexibility in the forward areas with the addition of an extra body).

What Begiristain will want is the same as Mancini, a fluid footballing force to tackle england and europe. Duuuh

 

[jrb]

F*** me, City best order a bigger trophy cabinet then.

 

[VOOMER]

Yeah, since Bayern signed Mandzukic they use 4-2-3-1 but used 4-3-3 last season, same with Madrid. I think it's not important if we'll call it 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. It's more about mobility, width. Probably we'll have to sign two wingers and two centre-midfielders but these changes should improve us in Europe.

Bayern use both formations. It's less about the striker but more about who plays behind him. With Müller centrally behind Gomez it was something between 4231 and 442/424. With Kroos in that role it's close to 433. This season when Kroos is rested or misses the game usually Shaqiri plays in that position, then it's a clear cut 4231 probably comparable to Real with Özil in that position. Müller usually played that position as a second striker, moving a lot without the ball while Schweinsteiger along with both wingers act as playmakers. With Kroos in the team and Müller as a right winger, they try to control the midfield, less direct passing towards goal but more about posession, building up from deep and waiting for the best opportunity to attack. Kroos and Schweinsteiger then often switch positions and one of Gustavo/Martinez usually covers for them. Bayern will probably play an even more fluid midfield 3 with Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Martinez this year, maybe the closest thing to Barca when comparing midfields in europe.

Overall it shows that these formations are fluid, playing different players with different abilities in one position may change the whole approach, so it's not about calling it 433 or 4231 or 451 or 442 after all. Barca's acadamy is about teaching the technical basics, reacting quickly to new situations, smart movement without the ball. If your players are great at these things, you can throw them in any formation with the focus on passing and moving. That's the way City's acadamy should go, imo. And then it's not important if the manager let the team play in a 4231 or a 433 or even with 3 at the back (Guardiola had Barca play some amazing football (check out the first half of last seasons 8:0 vs Osasuna) with a 343/334 formation last season with totally different player movement compared to his 433 in 08/09 with Henry, Eto'o upfront and acadamy players worked fine in both cases). That should lead to setup where both, DoF and Manager, will be happy and where both can influence the future of the club without loosing out on their own ideas.

Its more about having in Barcelona's case, the best starting 11 on the planet to play the system and in Bayern's case being head and shoulders above all but 1 team in terms of playing staff. In Italy, its more a more even playing field as it most certainly is in the EPL. As great as they are don't forget the limitations that the other teams have to deal with both in Spain and Germany!

 

[coulsonblue]

Regarding the Barca style, I think City have the most components apart from Messi


Sanchez- Silva
Pedro - Tevez
Messi - Aguero

(The front three are interchangeable, Silva's played the false 9 role for Spain effectively before).

Now it's not unlikely that the 11 City players above could be a starting XI for us, in fact, swapping Lescott for Nastasic, many would argue would give you our first choice XI from last season. The reason we don't play the same formation as Barca is that Silva and Tevez aren't as direct or quick as Sanchez and Pedro and as fantastic as Aguero is, he's sadly not Messi, so we've adjusted the system to fit our players, and Mancini decided 4-2-3-1 or 4-2-2-2 is a better fit for us.

I'd contest that Tevez is nothing like as similar as sanchez or pedro.

 

[Brendan110_0]

If these guys can unearth the talent that Barca have brought through, we'll be laughing. Barca are on a different planet.

Only because they have Messi, take him out they are beatable more often - still a good team without him mind.