Climate Change is here and man made

Excerpting this:
"Providing more CO2 doesn't make plants grow faster or better. "

From this:
"Providing more CO2 doesn't make plants grow faster or better. That would only be the case if we were near the lower end of CO2 concentration. As it is, if one tree can only use 1 bottle of CO2, the second bottle of CO2 is not going to get used no matter how hard the tree tries - it's a rarity that anything would need all the excess, and so it builds up. "

removes the context in my eyes. It may not be perfectly worded (that I will accept) but the paragraph is not wrong.

Actually, yes, it is wrong. We aren't talking fixed sized trees with fixed capacity are we. We are talking about plant life in general, as I pointed out in an early reply to your post.

And even if we stick with your flawed 1-tree analogy, the tree's capacity to absorb CO2 is dependent upon its size, so if it grows more quickly due to higher CO2 levels, it can then absorb even more CO2 since it is now a larger tree.

So on every level, your paragraph is wrong.

Now, before you go off and start changing the direction of this discussion, I did NOT say (and neither do I now) that the increase in plant growth can or will compensate enough in order to bring CO2 levels down. I made no comment about that. I merely said that in a world with higher CO2, we'd have a more verdant environment. You replied with your sentence above, and as I have pointed out, you are mistaken.
 
I've stayed out of this thread, I studied Biology at university and most of my final year was majoring in ecology, terrestrial, aquatic and atmospheric. There is some very simplistic science on this thread, from those claiming to have scientific knowledge. As someone who has studied this, I can tell you the oft quoted 'fact' on this thread of more CO2 means more plant growth is the sort of thing that is taught in general science, I would expect a GCSE Biology student to have a better understanding, I would expect an A level Biologist to know better and someone at degree level to know that too much CO2 is actually damaging to plant life, especially those that prefer alkaline soil, as CO2 saturation will result absorption into water ending up with more acidic conditions. Not only this, whilst CO2 is important in establishing the homeostatic mechanism whereby both plants and animals maintain their internal pH. If there is too much CO2, the CO2 absorbs into the cytosol and affects the internal pH, dropping it into the acidic end of the carbonate-bicarbonate buffer system, thus effecting enzymes which need a specific pH to function. So too much CO2 will acidify the leaves and kill plants. There are other variables that result in faster plant growth than an increase in CO2, space and water being probably the 2 most important, whilst CO2 is vital to the process, just raising its levels wont result in faster growth without an increase in water, space, the correct temperature and pH being maintained, as well as the presence of other more negligible minerals as well. In general plants need consistency to grow fast, a change in any one variable is likely to shock a plant, stunting growth and in extreme circumstances, killing it.

The degree of certainty being displayed by both sides of the argument on here is quite amusing, as even true experts in the field cant have any real certainty as to the effects of what is happening and what will happen (that is a wider point of social media, that it gives equal weighting to either side of any discussion because its a great leveler, you can have a physics debate with Steven Hawking on one side and Wayne Rooney on the other, for someone with little or no knowledge of who they are, their text appears the same so is given the same credence). There are some facts however, the temperature of the planet is increasing (unless you believe there is a conspiracy across multiple agencies and countries to lie about it), while there is evidence that the planet has been warmer in the past, the planet should be in a cooling phase not a warming one certainly if you believe in the cyclic effect of weather. Glaciers are disappearing, the ice caps are retreating further than before, ecosystems are being widely destroyed and there is a mass extinction of animals occurring on a level that hasnt been seen before without there being a significant climate shift ie an ice age. Planting a few trees will have no effect, planting a lot of trees wont necessarily have an effect, willfully destroying rain forest as is happening and replacing them with farm land or palm crops and thinking this is alright because they are plants is again bad science, as rainforests absorb far more CO2 than anything that replaces them. Man simply cant create a rain forest, they are quite delicate and intricate ecosystems that have evolved over millennia, its questionable if we have the knowledge to create one, let alone the resources of space, conditions and of course money, yet we are destroying them without much thought to the consequences.

Even if you dont think any of the above is important, that CO2 levels going up, sea levels rising and a bit of a temp increase is quite alright (even though there is there very likely chance that Britain will be cooler due to losing the gulf stream), and that tree huggers have some sort of agenda to keep the third world down and drive taxes up on car drivers. There is the indisputable fact that fossil fuels are running out, being at the forefront of renewable technology is a far better place to be, than being stuck behind the 8 ball early on and not catching up, thus having to rely on others that make the developments in new technologies in the future. As was once said by Harry Enfield of all people, its better to be on the train pissing out, than running along the platform, trying to piss in
 
All very interesting Paul and doubtless you know more about biology than I do, but nevertheless there's extensive evidence that the increasing CO2 levels have indeed made the planet greener. And you also say "the planet should be in a cooling phase". Why is that, bearing in mind we are still warming up following the last ice age?


Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds
From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth


Carbon dioxide emissions from industrial society have driven a huge growth in trees and other plants.
A new study says that if the extra green leaves prompted by rising CO2 levels were laid in a carpet, it would cover twice the continental USA.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36130346
 
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All very interesting Paul, but nevertheless there's extensive evidence that the increasing CO2 levels have indeed made the planet greener. And you also say "the planet should be in a cooling phase". Why is that, bearing in mind we are still warming up following the last ice age?

That just isnt the case, there isnt evidence that links CO2 being higher which results in the planet being greener, unless you cherry pick your results and ignore all other factors such as rainfall, space and temperature, which are far more important for the reasons i have outlined in my previous post. You are simplifying the issue to suit your argument.

It depends on who you believe in the cyclic nature of ice ages, however we should be cooling down towards one now. Even though its a long time period, in the history of our planet the temperature rise after an ice age is rapid shown in a peak in a graph of temperatures over time, this peaks and starts to go down quite quickly, however this time the peak happened about 20,000 years ago and started to slowly drop as expected, this drop has been halted, and whilst this has resulted in the peak of the graph the temperature has remained generally constant for this time period, something not experienced before, so rather than a sharp peak as was observed after every other ice age, its a peak that has maintained its temp.

Heres a graph that represents this, notice how the peak on the bottom graph is being maintained rather than dropping after reaching a high point.

vgsarb.jpg
 
All very interesting Paul and doubtless you know more about biology than I do, but nevertheless there's extensive evidence that the increasing CO2 levels have indeed made the planet greener. And you also say "the planet should be in a cooling phase". Why is that, bearing in mind we are still warming up following the last ice age?


Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds
From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth


Carbon dioxide emissions from industrial society have driven a huge growth in trees and other plants.
A new study says that if the extra green leaves prompted by rising CO2 levels were laid in a carpet, it would cover twice the continental USA.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36130346

Again you have added those, but temperature and rainfall have also increased in that time period, so again, its a simplifying of the facts to suit an agenda.
 
Again you have added those, but temperature and rainfall have also increased in that time period, so again, its a simplifying of the facts to suit an agenda.

there isnt evidence that links CO2 being higher which results in the planet being greener, unless you cherry pick your results and ignore all other factors such as rainfall, space and temperature, which are far more important for the reasons i have outlined in my previous post. You are simplifying the issue to suit your argument.

No, I am not.

From the Nasa link above:

Results showed that carbon dioxide fertilization explains 70 percent of the greening effect, said co-author Ranga Myneni, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Boston University. “The second most important driver is nitrogen, at 9 percent. So we see what an outsized role CO2 plays in this process.”

Rising CO2 levels will intensify algal blooms across the globe
In essence, the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentrations is one big fertilization experiment at an unprecedented large scale. An enhanced CO2 influx into aquatic ecosystems is not just a problem for a few local lakes, it will intensify algal blooms in nutrient-rich waters across the globe. Water managers and policy makers will have to prepare for a deterioration of the water quality due to climate change', says professor Jef Huisman.
http://phys.org/news/2014-08-co2-algal-blooms-globe.html#jCp


+++++++

Look, I am not saying I know all the answers. I merely made a throw-away line about the fact that if we live in a world in a 100 years time with elevated CO2 levels, the planet will likely be warmer and greener. I stand by that statement. Do you disagree with it?
 
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No, I am not.

From the Nasa link above:

Results showed that carbon dioxide fertilization explains 70 percent of the greening effect, said co-author Ranga Myneni, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Boston University. “The second most important driver is nitrogen, at 9 percent. So we see what an outsized role CO2 plays in this process.”

Rising CO2 levels will intensify algal blooms across the globe
In essence, the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentrations is one big fertilization experiment at an unprecedented large scale. An enhanced CO2 influx into aquatic ecosystems is not just a problem for a few local lakes, it will intensify algal blooms in nutrient-rich waters across the globe. Water managers and policy makers will have to prepare for a deterioration of the water quality due to climate change', says professor Jef Huisman.
http://phys.org/news/2014-08-co2-algal-blooms-globe.html#jCp


+++++++

Look, I am not saying I know all the answers. I merely made a throw-away line about the fact that if we live in a world in a 100 years time with elevated CO2 levels, the planet will likely be warmer and greener. I stand by that statement. Do you disagree with it?

You are doing a very good impression of someone who has all the answers, I have not made any predictions because I have listened to real experts in the field speak about the subject, and they wont make predictions with any real certaincy, you are a physicist so why you are so confident?

I dont disagree or agree with it, the only way the planet will be greener in 100 years with an increase CO2 is if its wetter, as water is essential to all life. Temperature and rainfall are also up over the last 30 years, the period that increased greening has been observed, so the same argument can be made for those as they are far more crucial to photosynthesis than CO2 for the reasons I outlined in my initial post, the carbon and water cycles run in parallel and effect each other. If the temperature continues to rise it will result in an increased rate of transpiration (the rate at which plants lose water) to a level that cant be maintained so unless it gets wetter and it will result in a less green planet. Its a fine balance.

"Studies have shown that plants can acclimatize, or adjust, to rising carbon dioxide concentration and the fertilization effect diminishes over time," said Philippe Ciais from the Laboratory of Climate and Environmental Sciences in France.

"Although the detection of the planet’s greening is based on satellite measurements, what drives this greening, which is not limited to just CO2 but also includes nitrogen, land cover change, precipitation, and sunlight, is based on models which have known deficiencies. Future studies will need to be completed to validate the team’s results."

As for algae blooms, they are very bad for water ways, they kill rivers and lakes making them uninhabitable for anything else as they absorb all the oxygen in the water, so even more animal species will be under threat, and we are in the midst of a mass extinction of animals as it is.
 
Earth gets made, carbon gets locked in and slowly released, an equilibrium is found. We come along and act as a catalyst for carbon reintroduction to the atmosphere at a rate nature had not intended.

The real question is (for me) how fast can life adapt, specifically the cannabis plant, if that starts to struggle some fucker is gonna get it :-) In fact i envisage this so will do all i can here and now to propagate the plant and treat its roots with the level of scientific understanding that Mr Knee employs (i only learned all that stuff from growing tbh haha)

It was again Sir David that brought all this to my attention at a young age standing where had previously 30 years ago at the same time of year, to the day in fact. The contrast of the calving area of the glacier to where it was 30 years previous shocked me and really made me take note.

In a few years i am off with jots to build my own house in a community i will be a good little hobbit offsetting the co2 footprint my gbit fibre line creates. Guy of bellend, has a ring to it don't you think :-D
 
Earth gets made, carbon gets locked in and slowly released, an equilibrium is found. We come along and act as a catalyst for carbon reintroduction to the atmosphere at a rate nature had not intended.

The real question is (for me) how fast can life adapt, specifically the cannabis plant, if that starts to struggle some fucker is gonna get it :-) In fact i envisage this so will do all i can here and now to propagate the plant and treat its roots with the level of scientific understanding that Mr Knee employs (i only learned all that stuff from growing tbh haha)

It was again Sir David that brought all this to my attention at a young age standing where had previously 30 years ago at the same time of year, to the day in fact. The contrast of the calving area of the glacier to where it was 30 years previous shocked me and really made me take note.

In a few years i am off with jots to build my own house in a community i will be a good little hobbit offsetting the co2 footprint my gbit fibre line creates. Guy of bellend, has a ring to it don't you think :-D

Hydroponics will be alright mate, have no fear, you can control your nutrient mix, ph, temp, light levels, space, CO2/O2 levels far easier in your spare room ecosystem mate to maximise your yield, so I am informed totally by others ;-)

Your point on adaption is a prevalent one, as plants (with the odd very mad exception) cant move so they are totally relying on the conditions in which they thrived being maintained.
 
You are doing a very good impression of someone who has all the answers, I have not made any predictions because I have listened to real experts in the field speak about the subject, and they wont make predictions with any real certaincy, you are a physicist so why you are so confident?

I dont disagree or agree with it, the only way the planet will be greener in 100 years with an increase CO2 is if its wetter, as water is essential to all life. Temperature and rainfall are also up over the last 30 years, the period that increased greening has been observed, so the same argument can be made for those as they are far more crucial to photosynthesis than CO2 for the reasons I outlined in my initial post, the carbon and water cycles run in parallel and effect each other. If the temperature continues to rise it will result in an increased rate of transpiration (the rate at which plants lose water) to a level that cant be maintained so unless it gets wetter and it will result in a less green planet. Its a fine balance.

"Studies have shown that plants can acclimatize, or adjust, to rising carbon dioxide concentration and the fertilization effect diminishes over time," said Philippe Ciais from the Laboratory of Climate and Environmental Sciences in France.

"Although the detection of the planet’s greening is based on satellite measurements, what drives this greening, which is not limited to just CO2 but also includes nitrogen, land cover change, precipitation, and sunlight, is based on models which have known deficiencies. Future studies will need to be completed to validate the team’s results."

As for algae blooms, they are very bad for water ways, they kill rivers and lakes making them uninhabitable for anything else as they absorb all the oxygen in the water, so even more animal species will be under threat, and we are in the midst of a mass extinction of animals as it is.

I'm not getting further drawn into this. It's fucking me right off to be honest.

I make a throw-away line about the fact that the world will be warmer and greener in 100 years time, if the CO2 levels rise as predicted and all I get is a fucking argument with people picking over every line. Did I say algae was a good thing? No. Did I say nitrogen levels and rainfall and god knows what else are irrelevant? No.

It was a throw away line, which incidentally happens to be correct. Now shove it up your arse and fuck off the lot of you.
 

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