Common sense or ethically wrong

  • Thread starter Thread starter ganganvince
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Common sense. Too many businesses have been too reliant on cheap labour. The same businesses that refuse to pay people properly.

it’s strange to see so many people, particularly on the left who want cheap labour and want people to come in and get paid f all, rather then increase wages or train British people up
 
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Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
Common sense. Too many businesses have been too reliant on cheap labour. The same businesses that refuse to pay people properly.

it’s strange to see so many people, particularly on the left who want cheap labour and want people to come in and get paid f all, rather then increase wages or train British people up
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It's weird to see the triangulation between those on the far left of the debate on BM with the low-tax free-marketeers on here.

Might help explain why the working class don't vote Labour anymore.
 
BobKowalski said:
As I understand it immigration is different between Australia and New Zealand in that they have a form of FoM applicable between these two countries.
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That’s totally irrelevant to the points system we’re discussing isn’t it?
 
Len Rum said:
This is the end. Beautiful friend.
[The Doors - the End.]
Turn on,tune in, drop out my beautiful Tory friend.
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The Blue bus is calling us
Driver where you taking us

One of the best songs ever and as I have said before, the Homer Simpson version is a classic.
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
Common sense. Too many businesses have been too reliant on cheap labour. The same businesses that refuse to pay people properly.

it’s strange to see so many people, particularly on the left who want cheap labour and want people to come in and get paid f all, rather then increase wages or train British people up
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Because in low wage, low skill regions like NI or elsewhere in GB access to outside labour with a minimum of state controlled rules and admin is necessary for economic growth. Overall we are currently at full employment so the labour to fill the gaps has to come from somewhere and if the rules for qualification are too high you will just drive that labour into the unregulated and untaxed black economy.

The US has stupidly onerous immigration rules and ends up with 20 million illegals on which the US economy depends. With the amount of public debt the US admin is pumping into the economy to keep growth going and offset the equally stupid tariff wars they now need more legal immigrants to keep fuelling the growth. When economic reality meets prejudice.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr...6292b2-5401-11ea-87b2-101dc5477dd7_story.html
 
Blue Hefner said:
What problem are they actually trying to solve?

We aren’t going to deport anyone so those that can’t get school places still won’t be able to, those that apparently can’t recognise their high street still won’t be able to and NHS waiting lists won’t be going down

The U.K. is almost at full employment and wages are apparently rising. So what’s the problem?

If people are in low paid jobs the Tory message used to be ‘get on your bike’. It’s a supply and demand issue. Typically cutting off the labor market isn’t a good idea

It seems to me to be reactionary. Being seen to do something, anything.

If school places are a problem then build more schools. If low pay is the issue, pay the public sector more. How are they getting on with the 40 hospitals. China did a couple in a week so we must be making some progress
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What do you do if you cannot physically build enough houses, hospitals and schools due to the fact that we need to build a city of them the size of Bristol every year?

Immigration changes the local landscape. Immigrants don't replace emigrants like for like in the locations where people used to live. They move mostly to cities and that immediately puts pressure on local infrastructure compared to the year before.

Think of your local community and let's say 20,000 people turned up in a year, every year. That is what is happening in London.

Even if Labour got in and promised all of the money and building in the world, it still wouldn't help. The reason why is Labour cannot build hospitals or schools any faster than anyone else.

Most immigration is measured by net figures but the gross figure is more important because that shows just how many are coming in and potentially moving to places like the cities. The gross figure is almost the population of Manchester and are we building a new Manchester every year?

There is nothing wrong with immigration but the shear amount and pace over the last 20 years has caught us completely off guard.
 
Ban-jani said:
That’s totally irrelevant to the points system we’re discussing isn’t it?
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No. The point is that immigration policy with close neighbours tends to operate differently than policy with non neighbouring countries. Having a universal policy that treats people from France the same as it does people from Nigeria or wherever is economically illiterate. We still have a different policy with the RoI due to history and geographic location do we not?

The reason why there is usually a difference is economics and cultural. You trade more with your near neighbours which creates greater links and preferential immigration policy develops to facilitate that trade. Cultural links can also make a difference ie ex colonies may have different immigration rules than countries with no cultural links.

Touting a immigration policy that is ‘fair’ for all is very nice but it ain’t going to work in reality.
 
inbetween said:
What do you do if you cannot physically build enough houses, hospitals and schools due to the fact that we need to build a city of them the size of Bristol every year?

Immigration changes the local landscape. Immigrants don't replace emigrants like for like in the locations where people used to live. They move mostly to cities and that immediately puts pressure on local infrastructure compared to the year before.

Think of your local community and let's say 20,000 people turned up in a year, every year. That is what is happening in London.

Even if Labour got in and promised all of the money and building in the world, it still wouldn't help. The reason why is Labour cannot build hospitals or schools any faster than anyone else.

Most immigration is measured by net figures because that shows just how many are coming in and potentially moving to places like the cities. The gross figure is almost the population of Manchester and are we building a new Manchester every year?

There is nothing wrong with immigration but the shear amount and pace over the last 20 years has caught us completely off guard.
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Two points in bold. 1. London is great and is the biggest driver of the UK economy so not seeing what the problem is. And 2. No shit. How can you simply measure people coming in and ignore people going out? Or dying for that matter.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I know. But my point was, if the UK introduces a point/language system for everyone that wants to move here, including retirees, the EU might reciprocate in kind.
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They may, but I doubt that a German, fully capable of buying a property and supporting himself with a pension
would not qualify for the required points. This is directed at workers, particularly unskilled workers. The overwhelming
majority of retirees are in Spain/Portugal, and more than a few around Greece, Cyprus etc; There are no language
barriers as they are not required, they are not in responsible jobs, and these countries have no problem with that.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
They may, but I doubt that a German, fully capable of buying a property and supporting himself with a pension
would not qualify for the required points. This is directed at workers, particularly unskilled workers. The overwhelming
majority of retirees are in Spain/Portugal, and more than a few around Greece, Cyprus etc; There are no language
barriers as they are not required, they are not in responsible jobs, and these countries have no problem with that.
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My point is not about multi lingual german millionaires trying to retire to a shooting estate in Scotland and being able to do so because they gain 70 points. Its about middle class gammons wanting to retire to the costa del sol when they don't have a word of spanish other than cerveza por favour, if the EU introduces similar controls on immigration from the UK.
 
inbetween said:
What do you do if you cannot physically build enough houses, hospitals and schools due to the fact that we need to build a city of them the size of Bristol every year?

Immigration changes the local landscape. Immigrants don't replace emigrants like for like in the locations where people used to live. They move mostly to cities and that immediately puts pressure on local infrastructure compared to the year before.

Think of your local community and let's say 20,000 people turned up in a year, every year. That is what is happening in London.

Even if Labour got in and promised all of the money and building in the world, it still wouldn't help. The reason why is Labour cannot build hospitals or schools any faster than anyone else.

Most immigration is measured by net figures but the gross figure is more important because that shows just how many are coming in and potentially moving to places like the cities. The gross figure is almost the population of Manchester and are we building a new Manchester every year?

There is nothing wrong with immigration but the shear amount and pace over the last 20 years has caught us completely off guard.
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But not many are on the dole! The vast majority work and pay taxes

We accept we need them we are just now saying those from Europe need points.

Population grows and moves, for a variety of reasons and should not come as a shock to government, communities etc.

Putting additional restrictions on top of the ones we already have, I feel, will cause more harm than good. Like I said, we aren’t going to deport anyone(yet) so high streets aren’t going to be anymore recognisable nor will there be anymore school places

We will have less nursing assistants, less people in hospitality etc. There is more chance of longer NHS waiting times, companies less likely to want to move here all whilst the fruit rots in the fields....
 
Ancient Citizen said:
They may, but I doubt that a German, fully capable of buying a property and supporting himself with a pension
would not qualify for the required points. This is directed at workers, particularly unskilled workers. The overwhelming
majority of retirees are in Spain/Portugal, and more than a few around Greece, Cyprus etc; There are no language
barriers as they are not required, they are not in responsible jobs, and these countries have no problem with that.
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To those with means FoM can be purchased. To those with less the rules apply. Liberating all citizens of Europe from the arbitrary control of national Govt via FoM is one of the EU’s greatest achievements.
 
BobKowalski said:
No. The point is that immigration policy with close neighbours tends to operate differently than policy with non neighbouring countries. Having a universal policy that treats people from France the same as it does people from Nigeria or wherever is economically illiterate. We still have a different policy with the RoI due to history and geographic location do we not?

The reason why there is usually a difference is economics and cultural. You trade more with your near neighbours which creates greater links and preferential immigration policy develops to facilitate that trade. Cultural links can also make a difference ie ex colonies may have different immigration rules than countries with no cultural links.

Touting a immigration policy that is ‘fair’ for all is very nice but it ain’t going to work in reality.
Click to expand...

The population of New Zealand is significantly less than our neighbours in Western Europe, though isn’t it?

Whilst you are right we need to trade locally more than further afield, you either have total free movement with the whole of the EU or not, there’s not a choice to just have FOM with France. It’s quite clear the public and our infrastructure won’t take it any longer.

Ireland is an anomaly due to the GFA, we won’t be able to negotiate that with any other EU country.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
They may, but I doubt that a German, fully capable of buying a property and supporting himself with a pension
would not qualify for the required points. This is directed at workers, particularly unskilled workers. The overwhelming
majority of retirees are in Spain/Portugal, and more than a few around Greece, Cyprus etc; There are no language
barriers as they are not required, they are not in responsible jobs, and these countries have no problem with that.
Click to expand...
British exceptionalism at it's best as illustrated in your post.
 
Ban-jani said:
The population of New Zealand is significantly less than our neighbours in Western Europe, though isn’t it?

Whilst you are right we need to trade locally more than further afield, you either have total free movement with the whole of the EU or not, there’s not a choice to just have FOM with France. It’s quite clear the public and our infrastructure won’t take it any longer.

Ireland is an anomaly due to the GFA, we won’t be able to negotiate that with any other EU country.
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France, Germany et al have FoM with each other and 27 other countries (inc Norway and Switzerland) with no qualms or problems. They regard FoM like we do a Scot living and working in England. Immigration to them is from outside the EU not internal with the EU. Are inability to understand or appreciate the realities and the benefits is our problem and our problem alone.
 
BobKowalski said:
France, Germany et al have FoM with each other and 27 other countries (inc Norway and Switzerland) with no qualms or problems. They regard FoM like we do a Scot living and working in England. Immigration to them is from outside the EU not internal with the EU. Are inability to understand or appreciate the realities and the benefits is our problem and our problem alone.
Click to expand...

You don’t think French and Germans have a problem with immigration?

They are worse than us.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
My point is not about multi lingual german millionaires trying to retire to a shooting estate in Scotland and being able to do so because they gain 70 points. Its about middle class gammons wanting to retire to the costa del sol when they don't have a word of spanish other than cerveza por favour, if the EU introduces similar controls on immigration from the UK.
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When Spain brings out policies that middle class gammons, lower class scrotes, and upper class wankers can not
buy properties, or retire to the Costas, your point may have merit. That there are dozens of Spanish towns and villages
that welcome these folk with open arms, as their communities are immediately enriched and prosper from them, with hundreds of
Spanish businesses flourishing because of them, I think you may have a long wait.
 
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