Coronavirus (2021) thread

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PannickAtTheDisco said:
Someone has to explain the correlation of timings and the fact that instances and other long-term effects of the vaccine are being under-reported. There are people I know who had the vaccine a couple of weeks ago and are still suffering temperature fluctuations, inability to sleep and are just being fobbed off with "it's normal", when it isn't. Equally, the majority are absolutely fine but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give properly detailed reasoning to quell any worries, because when it comes to something as important as the vaccine these questions should be willingly and openly answered given the level of trust given in taking them.
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It's very easy for even the published stats to be misinterepreted. I was recently diagnosed with a DVT in one leg, about a month after having the first Pfizer jab. However I know it was nothing to do with the vaccine as the swelling in my leg had started the week before the jab, but as far as my medical history is concerned the first contact with my GP was after the first jab so someone looking just at the records might conclude there was a possible link when there isn't.
 
lancs blue said:
It's very easy for even the published stats to be misinterepreted. I was recently diagnosed with a DVT in one leg, about a month after having the first Pfizer jab. However I know it was nothing to do with the vaccine as the swelling in my leg had started the week before the jab, but as far as my medical history is concerned the first contact with my GP was after the first jab so someone looking just at the records might conclude there was a possible link when there isn't.
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and the more explanations like that we get, the better. I think people are a lot more re-assured when the narrative is "we've checked and it's this" rather than "it's not us".

Like being on a plane and the lights go out, it all goes quiet and the captain goes "it's not me". Great, doesn't help us back here mate, tell us what is the problem.
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
Someone has to explain the correlation of timings
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No. Seriously, no. This is a fundamental misunderstanding.

We *expect* there to be instances of thrombosis randomly.

10s of millions of people have had this vaccine.

There *will* be correlations which do *not* have any explanation.

An analogy:

1000 people die of natural causes every day. Once a month there is a full moon. The next day, 1000 people die. Their deaths are correlated to the full moon! Someone has to explain the correlation of timings! Full moons kill people!
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
There are people I know who had the vaccine a couple of weeks ago and are still suffering temperature fluctuations, inability to sleep and are just being fobbed off with "it's normal", when it isn't
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This is actually very hard to prove.

The following is *not* a criticism in any way, or suggestion that the people you know are anything but completely truthful and honest.

If you look at the clinical trials for the vaccines, and more generally for drugs, you see many adverse reactions reported for the placebo arm.

In some cases, *more* are reported for the placebo arm.

What this tells us is that the process of going for a vaccination inherently makes us feel that we are unwell in various ways, even when those symptoms cannot possibly have been due to the active vaccine. In these circumstances, it's entirely possible, likely even, that what your friends are experiencing is entirely due to their own perceptions rather than anything to do with the action of the vaccine.

It should still be reported and monitored, of course.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
No. Seriously, no. This is a fundamental misunderstanding.

We *expect* there to be instances of thrombosis randomly.

10s of millions of people have had this vaccine.

There *will* be correlations which do *not* have any explanation.

An analogy:

1000 people die of natural causes every day. Once a month there is a full moon. The next day, 1000 people die. Their deaths are correlated to the full moon! Someone has to explain the correlation of timings! Full moons kill people!
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If people develop thrombosis or long-term health issues shortly after having the vaccine then the prominent additional variable in their life is receiving the vaccine and it should be fully investigated.

Full moons happen every month, it's not the same.
 
Rammy Blue said:
Exactly, so why isn’t this being pushed out there so to placate people?
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I mentioned this the other day when that comparison with Pfizer came out. Trouble is three groups really really want to hurt the AZ/Oxford vaccine - all their rivals as it is cheaper - and nations mad at how well the UK is doing because we erred on the side of caution and they did not so we ordered beyond our needs expecting delays and a mad rush and now that is seen as the right thing to have done. Plus all the anti vax people for whom this nonsense is perceived as vindication of their scaremongering.

Again our media are missing in action when needed to tell the real story fast before the wrong story kills people.
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
Astrazeneca need to provide a better explanation for these blood clots issues because it is already putting considerable doubts in people's minds. Correlation doesn't equal causation as they say but just a blanket statement "it isn't us" isn't re-assuring people.
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Purely political maneuvering to diss the O-AZ vaccine so other countries can feel better about not getting sufficient quantities of it. Also its cheap compared with other vaccines so that doesn't go down well with big Pharma.
The data says 17m vaccinations and pretty close to zero percent problems that aren't allergic in nature.
Same applies to the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines too. All vaccines have some issues with allergy responses normally from people who are allergic to things.
 
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Healdplace said:
I mentioned this the other day when that comparison with Pfizer came out. Trouble is three groups really really want to hurt the AZ/Oxford vaccine - all their rivals as it is cheaper - and nations mad at how well the UK is doing because we erred on the side of caution and they did not so we ordered beyond our needs expecting delays and a mad rush and now that is seen as the right thing to have done. Plus all the anti vax people for whom this nonsense is perceived as vindication of their scaremongering.

Again our media are missing in action when needed to tell the real story fast before the wrong story kills people.
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I have no doubt that a smear campaign is ongoing towards AZ
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
If people develop thrombosis or long-term health issues shortly after having the vaccine then the prominent additional variable in their life is receiving the vaccine and it should be fully investigated.

Full moons happen every month, it's not the same.
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Of course, it should. But the UK must have given more AZ than anywhere and for the longest time so there would by now be a pretty obvious signal if the 17 million or so who have are developing these issues at abnormal rates.

And that rise has not happened as of now.

Basing it on nations with much smaller numbers injected and more recently who think the data might be a signal suggests the problem may lie in either the tainted batch theory (that only went outside the UK) or less rigorous use elsewhere.
Or just as likely over caution that would have been ignored if not for all the past scare stories creating the perception this vaccine is botched or hurried which turned out to be just that - over caution.

Nobody should cut corners on vaccines. I see no evidence AZ did here. Indeed waiting to do further tests cost them the lead. The UK took the view the early data was good enough whilst the world waited for the better full data and are now behind. They are bound to feel a bit miffed and want to show their own people they were right to delay.
 
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PannickAtTheDisco said:
If people develop thrombosis or long-term health issues shortly after having the vaccine then the prominent additional variable in their life is receiving the vaccine and it should be fully investigated.

Full moons happen every month, it's not the same.
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Of course it should be investigated. I already said so.

But we should *expect* cases of thrombosis shortly after vaccinating because, like full moons, they occur all the time anyway.
 
carlosthejackal said:
I have no doubt that a smear campaign is ongoing towards AZ
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No, this is nonsense. Honestly.

Agencies investigating adverse events is exactly what should happen. Different agencies take a different view of risk.

Denmark and Ireland have suspended, Germany and France have not (IIRC).

Are you suggesting that the Danish medical regulator is part of a smear campaign, but the French regulator opted out?
 
PannickAtTheDisco said:
Someone has to explain the correlation of timings and the fact that instances and other long-term effects of the vaccine are being under-reported. There are people I know who had the vaccine a couple of weeks ago and are still suffering temperature fluctuations, inability to sleep and are just being fobbed off with "it's normal", when it isn't. Equally, the majority are absolutely fine but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give properly detailed reasoning to quell any worries, because when it comes to something as important as the vaccine these questions should be willingly and openly answered given the level of trust given in taking them.
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I had the Pfizer vaccine 2.5 weeks ago. I have had aching joints and muscles since that has gradually started to decline.
I had the virus last March/April and I had these self same symptoms for 3 months.
In the great scheme of things it is nothing and pretty much what happens when I have my yearly flu jab.
 
Rammy Blue said:
Exactly, so why isn’t this being pushed out there so to placate people?
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Quite. The same things have been reported for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (in slightly higher numbers) but the Pfizer vaccine roll out has not been temporarily stopped.
I wonder why?
 
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