Countries and their ashamed history

Nethermoor said:
So the Coronation and the complaints from people about how the UK used to try to take over the world brings the interesting debate.

How far do we go back for each country? I really don't think there's a country going that doesn't have skeletons in their closet, yet somehow we're easy targets due to our past.

We don't moan at Norway about Vikings.
The USA, Australia etc were both taken from the natives.

If there is a completely clean country i'd be interested to know... maybe Greenland? Faroes?
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You’d be hard pressed to find many countries or peoples in the world who haven’t been both invaders, conquerers, colonisers and enslavers; and also invaded, conquered, colonised and enslaved.

The island of Great Britain has been invaded, conquered, colonised and its people enslaved in just the era of written history by Romans, Scots/Irish, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Norse, Danes, Normans and Dutch.

The Normans enacted a genocide on the people of Northern England, in the Harrying of the North.

The Spanish also tried, as did Nazi Germany and France tried and failed numerous times but actually also succeeded numerous times, which isn’t told all that often (France successfully invaded England in 1216 and the whole of England was under French rule in 1216-17).

And these are just the ones we know about through written history. Genealogical history is showing that this might go back thousands of years before the Roman invasion going back to the Yamnaya Empire from about 5,000 years ago, who came from the purple lined area on the Eurasian Steppe and spread their peoples into the maroon areas on this map:

IMG_2875.png

We’ve also not needed external forces to come and do us in and oppress our population; we’ve had eleven English Civil Wars with the treatment of the losers at times being horrific. For example, many Catholics were sent to the African Slave Trade (which existed internally in Africa long before European Empires went worldwide) after defeat in the 1649.

You’re probably right in saying there are very few countries/peoples in the world who are a completely clean country… maybe half a dozen?
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
It started well before Cromwell and went on long after him.
Cromwell was particularly vicious in Ireland as revenge for the 1641 massacres in Ulster during the Catholic rebellions trying to take back their lands.
Atrocities happen on both sides in war. However going back at least to Elizabeth 1st all the way up into the 20th century, English monarchy and parliament introduced and maintained Sectarian governance into Ireland and is a direct result of what happened through Independence, partition and the troubles on this island.

English/British governance of this island was always sectarian and exploitative.
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Can’t argue with that. Having said that the Normans who first encroached in Ireland were *pretty hard (*that’s English understatement for being total bastards) on the native English after 1066 - they totally laid waste to the North of the Country.
 
My Gran was told to "look away" from a Cromwell statue when she was on a Catholic Womens day out.
Made me laugh.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
You’d be hard pressed to find many countries or peoples in the world who haven’t been both invaders, conquerers, colonisers and enslavers; and also invaded, conquered, colonised and enslaved.

The island of Great Britain has been invaded, conquered, colonised and its people enslaved by Romans, Scots/Irish, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Norse, Danes, Normans and Dutch.

The Normans enacted a genocide on the people of Northern England, in the Harrying of the North.

The Spanish also tried, as did Nazi Germany and France tried and failed numerous times but actually also succeeded numerous times, which isn’t told all that often (France successfully invaded England in 1216 and the whole of England was under French rule in 1216-17).

We’ve also not needed external forces to come and do us in and oppress our population; we’ve had eleven English Civil Wars with the treatment of the losers at times being horrific. And many Catholics were sent to the African Slave Trade after defeat in the 1649.

You’re probably right in saying there are very few countries/peoples in the world who are a completely clean country… maybe half a dozen?
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I’d be surprised in there were any…I was amazed to learn that even pacific coast native Americans were actively enslaving their neighbours. It’s part of the human condition for the strong (be it physically, militarily, technologically or economically) to exploit and dominate those weaker.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
It started well before Cromwell and went on long after him.
Cromwell was particularly vicious in Ireland as revenge for the 1641 massacres in Ulster during the Catholic rebellions trying to take back their lands.
Atrocities happen on both sides in war. However going back at least to Elizabeth 1st all the way up into the 20th century, English monarchy and parliament introduced and maintained Sectarian governance into Ireland and is a direct result of what happened through Independence, partition and the troubles on this island.

English/British governance of this island was always sectarian and exploitative.
Click to expand...
The Irish also sent 2,000 troops to Britain to fight for King Charles I in 1644 in the English Civil War. Which won’t have gone down well with Cromwell.

After the Romans left Britain, the Irish raided and invaded Britain numerous times as there was a power vacuum. The Irish invasions are the reason the Angles and Saxons were first brought over as mercenaries to fight for the natives of Britain while they didn’t have armies to repel the Irish (which ended up biting the Britons on the arse as Angles and Saxons also found opportunity with the power vacuum and invaded as well).

The Scotti of Ireland conquered large areas of what became Scotland, small areas of what became Northern England and an Irish Kingdom was established in what became Wales after the Romans left. Both Gwynedd and Dyfed are said to have originally been established by Irish invaders.

They won’t have established themselves in these areas through a tickling competition.

It could be said that the invasion of the Irish Scots to what became Scotland and Wales in Britain, was the first time those areas of Britain thought of themselves as separate areas to the rest of Britain (although it wasn’t known as Britain, but a series of different tribes/kingdoms of who thought of themselves as the same peoples) and the divides of Scotland, Wales and England were first sewn then.

Without those Irish invasions the history of this island would have been very different.
 
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Rory Bluelow said:
I’d be surprised in there were any…I was amazed to learn that even pacific coast native Americans were actively enslaving their neighbours. It’s part of the human condition for the strong (be it physically, militarily, technologically or economically) to exploit and dominate those weaker.
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It’s part of the evolution of our species and the many species we were before we became great apes, probably going back to the Cambrian Explosion.

The way we are a ruthless, violent and warring species is all about how genes are passed down through the generations.

I don’t think we’ll ever stop.
 
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