******Cricket Thread******

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

Pietersen reinstated as captain?

You must surely be a Surrey fan to even suggest such an absurdity.

He's averaging a meagre 33 for the calendar year.

I was running through our senior players to see a solution to the issue of Cook's form.

At the end of the day I think KP is the only player with the temperament to not be burdened by the captaincy and allow the other senior players to bat with the pressure off, as Cook has shown he plays better without that pressure on. If he can fix it great, if not the captaincy will likely go to Broad, who like Swann I don't think is about the team, I'm not saying KP always is but with his age he'd be transitional and in a couple of years someone like Root or a more mature Broad can take over.

At the end of the day I want England to win and maybe Cook's the answer, maybe it's Broad, it's needs seriously looking at and it's not a case of someone putting their hand up, it's genuinely whether they can shoulder that stress over several years, if you think our last few captains have all played poorer as captain than not, maybe we should move away from our best players being captain, or at least to the one who just does his thing with his game regardless of what the situation dictates.

Yes becauase last time KP was captain ended so well. Cook hasn't done a bad job (won in India, ICC final, Ashes win) one horrific series shouldn't affect his position. To make KP captain would be suicide, not particularly respected within the dressing room, bats irresponsibly (5 leg side dismissals this series suggests this) and will only be around for 2 years at most before he chases T20 money which is fair enough. Cook is the best man for the job and IF he doesn't want it, then Bell is the only real option.

and what if Bell's form goes the same way as Cook's, let's face it Cook's India win was just after he became captain and he's steadily deteriorated, even in that ODI final England should have won, and that Ashes win hinged on key moments that went our way rather than (Other than Lord's and Broad in Durham) a dominant display, some of them umpiring, some of them weather.

I see that steel in Joe Root, but he's nowhere near ready yet, and Cook batted better not being captain, and to be fair, it's not like neither he nor Root nor Prior nor Bell haven't got themselves out with soft or silly dismissals several times this series either.

There are big decisions to be made, probably shaped by Flower's call to be made, maybe with a more positive coach Cook will be forced out from his captaincy shell and hopefully with a long time till our next test series he'll study the captaincy of people like Clarke, McCullum and the greats and hopefully some county players will force themselves through at the start of next season.

 

[waspish]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I think now we are going to go through a transition period the negativity of Cooks captaincy is what we need ;)

Clarke's put Cook to shame this series, even McCullum displayed better captaincy skills.

It's like we still did well as City with Tevez as captain because our team and players were better than the opposition, but eventually better organised and run teams will get the edge, with Vinnie we're a different animal. Clarke has got far more out of his team than Cook has and that's down a positive mindset, no complacency and a desire to restore some pride, that's reflected in the bowling changes, the field placements, the line-ups chosen, Cook just hasn't got that spark for me.

Agree my choice would be broad the start of next summer

 

[Smith_]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I was running through our senior players to see a solution to the issue of Cook's form.

At the end of the day I think KP is the only player with the temperament to not be burdened by the captaincy and allow the other senior players to bat with the pressure off, as Cook has shown he plays better without that pressure on. If he can fix it great, if not the captaincy will likely go to Broad, who like Swann I don't think is about the team, I'm not saying KP always is but with his age he'd be transitional and in a couple of years someone like Root or a more mature Broad can take over.

At the end of the day I want England to win and maybe Cook's the answer, maybe it's Broad, it's needs seriously looking at and it's not a case of someone putting their hand up, it's genuinely whether they can shoulder that stress over several years, if you think our last few captains have all played poorer as captain than not, maybe we should move away from our best players being captain, or at least to the one who just does his thing with his game regardless of what the situation dictates.

Yes becauase last time KP was captain ended so well. Cook hasn't done a bad job (won in India, ICC final, Ashes win) one horrific series shouldn't affect his position. To make KP captain would be suicide, not particularly respected within the dressing room, bats irresponsibly (5 leg side dismissals this series suggests this) and will only be around for 2 years at most before he chases T20 money which is fair enough. Cook is the best man for the job and IF he doesn't want it, then Bell is the only real option.

and what if Bell's form goes the same way as Cook's, let's face it Cook's India win was just after he became captain and he's steadily deteriorated, even in that ODI final England should have won, and that Ashes win hinged on key moments that went our way rather than (Other than Lord's and Broad in Durham) a dominant display, some of them umpiring, some of them weather.

I see that steel in Joe Root, but he's nowhere near ready yet, and Cook batted better not being captain, and to be fair, it's not like neither he nor Root nor Prior nor Bell haven't got themselves out with soft or silly dismissals several times this series either.

There are big decisions to be made, probably shaped by Flower's call to be made, maybe with a more positive coach Cook will be forced out from his captaincy shell and hopefully with a long time till our next test series he'll study the captaincy of people like Clarke, McCullum and the greats and hopefully some county players will force themselves through at the start of next season.

I think Cook's earned the right to prove himself, he does need to improve but he's relatively young in cricketing terms, the thing that worries me is that Ashley Giles will be the new coach and I can't see him being like Lehmann and being aggresive. Root has been labelled as FEC since his debut, but he needs to cement his place in the team first through sheer weight of runs, but Greame Smith was made captain of SA aged 22, so you never know, can't see it though.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

Yes becauase last time KP was captain ended so well. Cook hasn't done a bad job (won in India, ICC final, Ashes win) one horrific series shouldn't affect his position. To make KP captain would be suicide, not particularly respected within the dressing room, bats irresponsibly (5 leg side dismissals this series suggests this) and will only be around for 2 years at most before he chases T20 money which is fair enough. Cook is the best man for the job and IF he doesn't want it, then Bell is the only real option.

and what if Bell's form goes the same way as Cook's, let's face it Cook's India win was just after he became captain and he's steadily deteriorated, even in that ODI final England should have won, and that Ashes win hinged on key moments that went our way rather than (Other than Lord's and Broad in Durham) a dominant display, some of them umpiring, some of them weather.

I see that steel in Joe Root, but he's nowhere near ready yet, and Cook batted better not being captain, and to be fair, it's not like neither he nor Root nor Prior nor Bell haven't got themselves out with soft or silly dismissals several times this series either.

There are big decisions to be made, probably shaped by Flower's call to be made, maybe with a more positive coach Cook will be forced out from his captaincy shell and hopefully with a long time till our next test series he'll study the captaincy of people like Clarke, McCullum and the greats and hopefully some county players will force themselves through at the start of next season.

I think Cook's earned the right to prove himself, he does need to improve but he's relatively young in cricketing terms, the thing that worries me is that Ashley Giles will be the new coach and I can't see him being like Lehmann and being aggresive. Root has been labelled as FEC since his debut, but he needs to cement his place in the team first through sheer weight of runs, but Greame Smith was made captain of SA aged 22, so you never know, can't see it though.

yeah but Smith's imposing, dominant and commanding, Root is like a little sheep at the moment, just blocking and hoping for the best.

There's no charisma or fire in either Cook or Giles so I don't see where England are going to go from there, the Aussies are characters, England need a character at the top imo.

 

[Smith_]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

and what if Bell's form goes the same way as Cook's, let's face it Cook's India win was just after he became captain and he's steadily deteriorated, even in that ODI final England should have won, and that Ashes win hinged on key moments that went our way rather than (Other than Lord's and Broad in Durham) a dominant display, some of them umpiring, some of them weather.

I see that steel in Joe Root, but he's nowhere near ready yet, and Cook batted better not being captain, and to be fair, it's not like neither he nor Root nor Prior nor Bell haven't got themselves out with soft or silly dismissals several times this series either.

There are big decisions to be made, probably shaped by Flower's call to be made, maybe with a more positive coach Cook will be forced out from his captaincy shell and hopefully with a long time till our next test series he'll study the captaincy of people like Clarke, McCullum and the greats and hopefully some county players will force themselves through at the start of next season.

I think Cook's earned the right to prove himself, he does need to improve but he's relatively young in cricketing terms, the thing that worries me is that Ashley Giles will be the new coach and I can't see him being like Lehmann and being aggresive. Root has been labelled as FEC since his debut, but he needs to cement his place in the team first through sheer weight of runs, but Greame Smith was made captain of SA aged 22, so you never know, can't see it though.

yeah but Smith's imposing, dominant and commanding, Root is like a little sheep at the moment, just blocking and hoping for the best.

There's no charisma or fire in either Cook or Giles so I don't see where England are going to go from there, the Aussies are characters, England need a character at the top imo.

I completely agree RE Root, he's in the team as much for his potential rather than his actual contribution atm. RE Cook, maybe not, but there wasn't a lot of apparent fire or charisma is Strauss/Vaughan either IMO, the team needs to rebuild and I think he's the best man to oversee that, who will be brought in for the summer series will be interesting to see

 

[ManCityTom]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I can't be assed quoting people so shall just put it simply

The idea of making KP captain is insane more like he needs dropping until his head comes back out his ass

Keep it with Cook but if you want someone else give it to Broad

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I can't be assed quoting people so shall just put it simply

The idea of making KP captain is insane more like he needs dropping until his head comes back out his ass

Keep it with Cook but if you want someone else give it to Broad

talking of people who's head needs to come out of their arse...

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I think Cook's earned the right to prove himself, he does need to improve but he's relatively young in cricketing terms, the thing that worries me is that Ashley Giles will be the new coach and I can't see him being like Lehmann and being aggresive. Root has been labelled as FEC since his debut, but he needs to cement his place in the team first through sheer weight of runs, but Greame Smith was made captain of SA aged 22, so you never know, can't see it though.

yeah but Smith's imposing, dominant and commanding, Root is like a little sheep at the moment, just blocking and hoping for the best.

There's no charisma or fire in either Cook or Giles so I don't see where England are going to go from there, the Aussies are characters, England need a character at the top imo.

I completely agree RE Root, he's in the team as much for his potential rather than his actual contribution atm. RE Cook, maybe not, but there wasn't a lot of apparent fire or charisma is Strauss/Vaughan either IMO, the team needs to rebuild and I think he's the best man to oversee that, who will be brought in for the summer series will be interesting to see

true but Vaughan had flamboyant characters like Freddie, the attacking intent of Trescothick and a seam attack we've never seen the like of since. Strauss still had Freddie and both had a young KP and the youthful exuberance of Broad and the rebirth of Swann as an international spinner. Those characters have become stale, older and a bit complacent, it's up to the younger lads of Root, Stokes, Taylor, Kerrigan, Ballance, Buttler, Davies, Finn, Chopra etc. to step it up, we won't know till they get put in there but we need to be looking at them. A partner for Cook is a priority, ideally a more attack minded player to keep the scoreboard ticking, Bell to 3, I'd naturally stick by KP but have Taylor first on the list to replace him when he departs, Root at 5 and then you have the difficult part.

Stokes at 6, or Ballance at 6, or do you go with a Borthwick or Rashid at 6 or 7? Do you stick by Prior, or look to a Davies or a Buttler if he plays well for Lancs? If it's either of those 2 then they maybe would play 6, with Stokes at 7 and then Kerrigan with 3 seamers. If you want Ballance, who personally I believe deserves a shout, then your keeper plays at 7 and then you're looking at not playing Stokes but 3 out and out seam bowlers, unless Stokes can really shine for the rest of the tour and take plenty of wickets to justify him playing, but even then down at 8, doesn't really work as a balance of the side.

 

[Smith_]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

yeah but Smith's imposing, dominant and commanding, Root is like a little sheep at the moment, just blocking and hoping for the best.

There's no charisma or fire in either Cook or Giles so I don't see where England are going to go from there, the Aussies are characters, England need a character at the top imo.

I completely agree RE Root, he's in the team as much for his potential rather than his actual contribution atm. RE Cook, maybe not, but there wasn't a lot of apparent fire or charisma is Strauss/Vaughan either IMO, the team needs to rebuild and I think he's the best man to oversee that, who will be brought in for the summer series will be interesting to see

true but Vaughan had flamboyant characters like Freddie, the attacking intent of Trescothick and a seam attack we've never seen the like of since. Strauss still had Freddie and both had a young KP and the youthful exuberance of Broad and the rebirth of Swann as an international spinner. Those characters have become stale, older and a bit complacent, it's up to the younger lads of Root, Stokes, Taylor, Kerrigan, Ballance, Buttler, Davies, Finn, Chopra etc. to step it up, we won't know till they get put in there but we need to be looking at them. A partner for Cook is a priority, ideally a more attack minded player to keep the scoreboard ticking, Bell to 3, I'd naturally stick by KP but have Taylor first on the list to replace him when he departs, Root at 5 and then you have the difficult part.

Stokes at 6, or Ballance at 6, or do you go with a Borthwick or Rashid at 6 or 7? Do you stick by Prior, or look to a Davies or a Buttler if he plays well for Lancs? If it's either of those 2 then they maybe would play 6, with Stokes at 7 and then Kerrigan with 3 seamers. If you want Ballance, who personally I believe deserves a shout, then your keeper plays at 7 and then you're looking at not playing Stokes but 3 out and out seam bowlers, unless Stokes can really shine for the rest of the tour and take plenty of wickets to justify him playing, but even then down at 8, doesn't really work as a balance of the side.

Agreed, at the end of the day a captain is only really as good as the side at his disposal.

Agree RE Taylor, I thought he was harshly treated by the selectors, I worry that his face doesn't fit. I can see Robson coming in to open with Cook, I think Bell, Root, KP will stay for a couple of years, I don't think Stokes bowling is strong enough for him to bat at 8, so 6/7 is probably best. I'd like to see Buttler in at 7, even though his FC record isn't great i'd like to see his given a bit of license down at 7, they will probably go Bairstow though. Borthwick could bat at 8, but i'm not sure if his bowling is good enough, Monty isn't the future IMO, so do you stick with him for a couple of give Kerrigan a prolonged run? Finn needs to step up, Overton looks promising.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: ********The Winter Ashes********

I completely agree RE Root, he's in the team as much for his potential rather than his actual contribution atm. RE Cook, maybe not, but there wasn't a lot of apparent fire or charisma is Strauss/Vaughan either IMO, the team needs to rebuild and I think he's the best man to oversee that, who will be brought in for the summer series will be interesting to see

true but Vaughan had flamboyant characters like Freddie, the attacking intent of Trescothick and a seam attack we've never seen the like of since. Strauss still had Freddie and both had a young KP and the youthful exuberance of Broad and the rebirth of Swann as an international spinner. Those characters have become stale, older and a bit complacent, it's up to the younger lads of Root, Stokes, Taylor, Kerrigan, Ballance, Buttler, Davies, Finn, Chopra etc. to step it up, we won't know till they get put in there but we need to be looking at them. A partner for Cook is a priority, ideally a more attack minded player to keep the scoreboard ticking, Bell to 3, I'd naturally stick by KP but have Taylor first on the list to replace him when he departs, Root at 5 and then you have the difficult part.

Stokes at 6, or Ballance at 6, or do you go with a Borthwick or Rashid at 6 or 7? Do you stick by Prior, or look to a Davies or a Buttler if he plays well for Lancs? If it's either of those 2 then they maybe would play 6, with Stokes at 7 and then Kerrigan with 3 seamers. If you want Ballance, who personally I believe deserves a shout, then your keeper plays at 7 and then you're looking at not playing Stokes but 3 out and out seam bowlers, unless Stokes can really shine for the rest of the tour and take plenty of wickets to justify him playing, but even then down at 8, doesn't really work as a balance of the side.

Agreed, at the end of the day a captain is only really as good as the side at his disposal.

Agree RE Taylor, I thought he was harshly treated by the selectors, I worry that his face doesn't fit. I can see Robson coming in to open with Cook, I think Bell, Root, KP will stay for a couple of years, I don't think Stokes bowling is strong enough for him to bat at 8, so 6/7 is probably best. I'd like to see Buttler in at 7, even though his FC record isn't great i'd like to see his given a bit of license down at 7, they will probably go Bairstow though. Borthwick could bat at 8, but i'm not sure if his bowling is good enough, Monty isn't the future IMO, so do you stick with him for a couple of give Kerrigan a prolonged run? Finn needs to step up, Overton looks promising.

Yeah, I think they've thrown him in at Morkel and Steyn, wondered why the bouncers are going over the head of a 5ft 6 young lad and because the team disposed of KP, the only batsmen making any inroads in that series, it basically sent Taylor as a lamb to the slaughter because England were never going to do anything that series.

Don't agree that a captain is only really as good as his side, at the end of the day Clarke and McCullum have both got more out of what they have than Cook this year.

Robson's a good shout but if it's Giles in charge then it will likely be Chopra. If you play Stokes at 6/7 then you can't play Ballance in that team, and I think Buttler needs to prove his FC credentials at Lancs first, Davies was the best wicket keeper and WKB in CC last season and I believe deserves his chance. Buttler is definately a good long term option but Davies can also whack it round, his T20 and one day performances for Surrey last season showed that, Bairstow isn't seen as good with the gloves. Spinner is a problem but I think you have to play your best spinner and worry about the other 10 getting the runs, nobody's stepped up but are our conditions conducive enough to top spin bowling, Swann was an exception imo. In terms of seamers it doesn't help when they don't pick the right combinations for a test, Tremlett wasn't quick but didn't do much wrong in the first test and his bounce would have helped at Perth, particularly as these days he can just keep it tight. Finn can't stop himself getting whacked all over the park, Bresnan wasn't right for Perth, Jimmy is past his best and I think you can only play 1 of those 2. Broad can be sensational and he can also be as daft with bat and ball as anyone in the team so if he wants to be captain he really needs to settle down and show some more maturity. Tough decisions to be made.