Crystal Palace (H) - Post Match

[spiny]

The Palace 2nd goal was like watching a car crash in slow motion. Their first was lack of concentration and commitment.
They got breaks but City did little to prevent it. City players get caught up in the moment and lose their shape.

Opposite sides play for set pieces and 1 on 1's from which they can expect to score.
In contrast City make dozens of crosses and runs that are mainly blocked or rarely trouble the goalkeeper.

The probem is as much about players lack of intent and desire as Peps tactics. Take Sterling who has regressed from main man to also ran. There are others who have lost sight of the basics.

 

[mcs]

Great reply mate, many thanks. Just wondering now, does the ref have to accept VAR panel decision, or can he simply think, I am in charge and I believe I was orinially correct so my initial ruling stands?

I agree it could be a career limiting stance

You have hit the nail on the head in terms of what I think is the biggest bugbear with VAR. It seems the VAR overlords have the final say.

I do not know the exact answer to your question - but we have yet to see an example of where the ref seemingly has had the final say (But then we dont know as there is no 'public' nature of information flow between VAR and the referee.

I think the biggest improvement to VAR would be, for everything bar the bleedingly obvious incorrect decisions that can be quickly fixed or offsides (Where they have gone down the route of trying to do micro-precision analysis), that the on field referee remains the decision maker. VAR can review and tell him he must go and look at the screen and reconsider his decision, but he remains the ultimate decision maker. He (or she one day perhaps) must then be willing to front up and explain his decisions after the game, if it disagrees with the footage. Add to that a requirement that wherever possible replays are shown at the ground as they are watched for VAR (noting the pond in Trafford and Klanfield need to get with the times), and that the conversation is streamed live (As it is in rugby union and rugby league) so everyone knows whats going on, and a lot of the issues with VAR will go away.

But that would encourage transparency and remove the ability for VAR to potentially drive an agenda (not saying it is being used like that at the moment) - and that seems to be what I suspect many think is the real driving force behind the half arsed way it has been implemented this season.

I reckon had the referee had the final call yesterday, it would have stood as a penalty. On the basis I think he adjudged it to be accidental handball, but the body being 'unnaturally bigger' as per the rule. I don't think anyone can mount a strong argument that such a conclusion, when made live as it was by him, by necessarily unreasonable - certainly not a 'clear and obvious error' as VAR rules are supposed to stipulate. Its very noticeable in their press release/dribble about the decision that they seemed to solely focus on the aspect of 'boot to hand', but conveniently ignore the other aspect of the rule (I.e. the body must also not be naturally bigger). Very selectively presented to try and suggest a 'clear and obvious error', when I'm not convinced there actually was one.

I wish the referees were made to justify their decisions, or at least be able to be asked about them. But for that to transpire, it will need a complete shift on what VAR is and how its implemented.

 

[mcs]

The Palace 2nd goal was like watching a car crash in slow motion. Their first was lack of concentration and commitment.
They got breaks but City did little to prevent it. City players get caught up in the moment and lose their shape.

Opposite sides play for set pieces and 1 on 1's from which they can expect to score.
In contrast City make dozens of crosses and runs that are mainly blocked or rarely trouble the goalkeeper.

The probem is as much about players lack of intent and desire as Peps tactics. Take Sterling who has regressed from main man to also ran. There are others who have lost sight of the basics.

I don't think Sterling has regressed - I think he is just buggered and needs a decent break. Has played a lot of football this season.

 

[spiny]

I don't think Sterling has regressed - I think he is just buggered and needs a decent break. Has played a lot of football this season.

Maybe it is cause and effect but it does not help the team or his confidence.

 

[OB1]

I think you'll find when Laporte comes bank suddenly the defenders around him will look good again.

The one player who I think City fans can justifiably be concerned with is Cancelo. Very disappointing buy. Danilo was better. I also have a bit of a concern about Rodri. I am more concerned about the defenisve midfield position at City than centre-back.

If you look at the Palace equaliser it stems not from Stones but Rodri and Cancelo. Rodri lost a midfield 50/50. In fact KDB also loses a 50/50 and then Cancelo i out of position. The only city player who even tries to do his job properly is Stones. But typically City fans follow the herd because Stones gets universal criticism. He is at most partly to blame for a collective failure.

Too many people just want to play the blame game and we have always had far too many "supporters" who love to scapegoat a player.

In my opinion, virtually the whole team were at fault in some way on their equalizer. I'd be interested to know if the goal kick that Ederson took was a planned move for that situation and executed how Pep wanted; given that he has mentioned not allowing Zaha to run, it couldn't have gone entirely as coached even if it was his idea. I thought Ederson should have gone wide with that GK or even kicked for touch so that we could press them high and try and keep the ball in a corner.

 

[mcs]

Maybe it is cause and effect but it does not help the team or his confidence.

I do agree broadly. I just have felt over the last half a dozen games he really looks to be lacking any 'spark' as such to his game. His form has always ebbed and flowed throughout his career, and he looks awful at times and world beating at others (Becoming far more consistent with time, especially at City). Hopefully the upcoming late winter break might help him a bit. Need him firing for the RM tie.

 

[Marvin]

I like that, a balanced and more importantly realistic take.

It's not balanced. It's called walking a tightrope.

Of course there is a possibility that City have gone stale, and if that is the case Pep should go. Indeed if you listen to Pep he says that one of the issues that worrie

You have hit the nail on the head in terms of what I think is the biggest bugbear with VAR. It seems the VAR overlords have the final say.

I do not know the exact answer to your question - but we have yet to see an example of where the ref seemingly has had the final say (But then we dont know as there is no 'public' nature of information flow between VAR and the referee.

I think the biggest improvement to VAR would be, for everything bar the bleedingly obvious incorrect decisions that can be quickly fixed or offsides (Where they have gone down the route of trying to do micro-precision analysis), that the on field referee remains the decision maker. VAR can review and tell him he must go and look at the screen and reconsider his decision, but he remains the ultimate decision maker. He (or she one day perhaps) must then be willing to front up and explain his decisions after the game, if it disagrees with the footage. Add to that a requirement that wherever possible replays are shown at the ground as they are watched for VAR (noting the pond in Trafford and Klanfield need to get with the times), and that the conversation is streamed live (As it is in rugby union and rugby league) so everyone knows whats going on, and a lot of the issues with VAR will go away.

But that would encourage transparency and remove the ability for VAR to potentially drive an agenda (not saying it is being used like that at the moment) - and that seems to be what I suspect many think is the real driving force behind the half arsed way it has been implemented this season.

I reckon had the referee had the final call yesterday, it would have stood as a penalty. On the basis I think he adjudged it to be accidental handball, but the body being 'unnaturally bigger' as per the rule. I don't think anyone can mount a strong argument that such a conclusion, when made live as it was by him, by necessarily unreasonable - certainly not a 'clear and obvious error' as VAR rules are supposed to stipulate. Its very noticeable in their press release/dribble about the decision that they seemed to solely focus on the aspect of 'boot to hand', but conveniently ignore the other aspect of the rule (I.e. the body must also not be naturally bigger). Very selectively presented to try and suggest a 'clear and obvious error', when I'm not convinced there actually was one.

I wish the referees were made to justify their decisions, or at least be able to be asked about them. But for that to transpire, it will need a complete shift on what VAR is and how its implemented.

Another feature of VAR is the increase in theatrics and complaints. Players are anticipating that every move might be replayed so their willingness to deceive and act goes up not down. See it especially with players reactions to slightly OTT challenges which could get a yellow and get upgraded into reds.

Video evidence should imo be used for retrospctive disciplinary action not to amend refereeing 2-3 minutes later. Getting a 2nd opinion 2-3 minutes after the event is not useful.

 

[mcfcphil]

No one that I can see is saying the board should be meeting today or Monday to decide whether to sack him this week because we fucked up against Palace again. But you seem to think people are saying that as you've got so uptight about it that you're not reading what people are writing. What people are saying is that we might need to accept that, as good a manager as he is, there's a possibility that he's reached his peak with us or he's burned himself out. He might think he's at that stage and decide to go at the end of next season, when his contract ends.

As you've mentioned Mancini, there was a great example of a manager who gave us a kick up the backside when we needed it. But eventually the players got tired of his angry man schtick and many were threatening to walk. That was Mancini, for better or worse, and that's why he had a short shelf-life at a club. We also had a sense of misguided loyalty to him as we should have let him walk in the summer of 2012 as he was threatening to do.

So unless something dramatic and unforeseen happens, Pep has another season and a half here. There is currently no better manager in the world than Pep but if things have gone stale and he can't or doesn't want to turn things round then he won't be here in 2021/22. We may not get a "better" manager but we might get one who's better for us at that time. And so the cycle starts again.

just because we won’t win the league doesn’t mean we’ve gone stale!

We’re 2nd in the league, on the verge of Wembley, still in FA Cup and topped our CL group with a game to come against Real Madrid.

But you think we should consider replacing the manager because we won’t win the league for the third year on the bounce.

Astonishing level of disrespect towards Guardiola for what he has achieved here - but more importantly a huge disrespect towards him for thinking he won’t continue to be successful with city.

 

[robbieh]

I’ve questioned every manager we’ve ever had, but even I draw the line with Pep. You talk about defensive frailties and Pep being held accountable for them, but you have to take into account the context. Kompany gone, our best defender injured, Otamendi struggling, Stones struggling, Fernandinho playing out of position. Those who were pointing out our over reliance on Laporte before a ball was kicked have been vindicated. You think Pep can’t see these problems? It’s clear a rebuild is required and I’m desperate for Pep to be the man in charge whilst this happens. I understand he’s probably off soon, but I’m convinced he understands what is needed and is the man to deliver it before he hands over the reins. We may well end up looking back on the Pep era as out best ever period in terms of trophies and performance levels, I doubt we’ll replace him with a better manager.

Think you might benefit from watching the 2 abject defensive performances by Bayern in the CL to realize that it's not just about Laporte's injury or Kompany leaving.

While Pep's creative attacking philosophy is second to none, he like everybody has a blind spot.

 

[mcs]

Video evidence should imo be used for retrospctive disciplinary action not to amend refereeing 2-3 minutes later. Getting a 2nd opinion 2-3 minutes after the event is not useful.

I think it has a role to play in fixing up errors on the spot - but I do think we need 1 referee, not 2 (or multiple it seems) as we have in the current framework. But I certainly agree something needs to be done with the theatrics and complaints we are seeing now.