gordondaviesmoustache said:
How can our league finishes have no merit whatsoever within the context of this debate? It is an utterly absurd thing to suggest.
You might not agree with what I'm saying, but to suggest, as you have, that the league positions we achieved in that time add nothing to the debate is utterly preposterous. I'm sure if we'd won the league two or three times in that period you would be using that as evidence of his prowess as a player, likewise if we'd been relegated in that period that would also carry weight in this discussion. As it happens neither of those things are true, but where we did finish is a valid part of the debate, as he was part if that team, by consensus a a underachieving team, with him at its heart. He was part if the reason for those finishes.
How many league titles did Gazza win? Or David Platt? Le Tissier? Even Gerrard! How about Alan Shearer, was he a great player? What was his average league finish? Was he a player that dragged teams through? He scored 260 league goals, I'd say he was. He won one trophy in his whole career.
This idea that great players can carry teams on their own is just absolute bollocks, perpetuated by the bollocks that Maradona won the world cup on his own. I'm sure Passarella, Burrachaga, and Valdano don't think it was a one man team.
Probably the best 5 or 6 players of all time are Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Cruyff and Zidane. How many of them dragged average teams to trophies? Possibly Maradona, but none of the others did. They all played in brilliant teams and won loads of trophies as the stand out player. Ronaldo plays in an average national team, and they get average results, even with him in it.
Pele played in the best national team of all time and is often lauded as the best player in history because of his performances in the world cup. Messi is today considered by many as the best player ever to play, but he's also playing in the best club side ever.
Put Pele in Wales team in the 60s and 70s, would they have won 3 world cups? Put Messi in Everton's team over the last 10 years, would they have won 3 Champions League's? I don't think they would.
A great player can drag an average team to the odd trophy, but it takes a great team to win trophies consistently.
I can't judge Bell as I never saw him play, but to say he can't have been that good because the team he played in didn't do better is just absurd. Alan Shearer is the best example, how many titles would he have won if he'd signed for the shite? Does that mean he would have been a better player? Of course not, he'd have been the same player, playing in a better team.