Dear Atheists..

JASR said:
Ta for all that.

I think their are 2 important points in all that.
1. Homer, Sun tzu, Pythagoras et al, left behind stuff that advanced knowledge, whether it was them, partly them, or someone entirely different and they co-opted them and consigned them to being completely unknown… it doesn’t matter, as none claimed divinity about it.
2. I always wondered about the oft quoted trope about a man called ‘Jesus’ having lots of evidence and youve just laid it bear, that any fragments could be about hundreds if not thousands of different people. I think I asked earlier today, where’s the info about ‘Jesus’ between being born, then nothing till working as a carpenter, then nothing till kicking up a fuss.
Click to expand...
there isnt lots of evidence despite what johnny and et al say

there is absolutely no contemporary evidence apart from the gospels(and they were only written at least two generations later and are all anonymous) from anyone who would of been there/aware and who would of and should of said something
i.e ,seneca the younger, philo of alexandria, gallio to name but a few

like i say this doesn't mean there was no jesus but for the rock star of the 1st century to go totally unnoticed is highly suspicious
 
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M23 Citizen said:
Like I said further down in the post you quoted me from, ‘And you may say, but there isn’t truly reliable evidence of many people from that time - and you’d be right - but Jesus is supposed to be the most important human that’s ever lived so I’m looking for much more weighted evidence for his existence than anyone else’s’.

And I may have because - despite being an atheist - I think mythologies and the real history around them is very interesting and I’ve done a lot of reading about it.

For example, there’s no evidence of Hebrews being slaves to Egypt. Also, when the Hebrews supposedly escaped from Egypt, crossed a body of water, wandered for 40 years in the desert and then came upon the Promised Land (some time between 1,400-1,200BCE), the entirety of their journey was actually all in Egypt because Egypt between the reigns of Thutmos III and Rameses II went right across the Levant, up past the Euphrates up towards Armenia.
The story of Moses - just like Jesus - is just an amalgamation of numerous older stories from other mythologies, including Egyptian mythology itself.

I haven’t doubted those historical figures because there isn’t a story of Homer making blind men see and lame men walk, there isn’t a story of Pythagoras walking on water and there isn’t a story of Sun Tzu coming back to life after being executed… so even if the Iliac was written a long time after Homer supposedly lived, Pythagoras thought planets sang to each other or there wasn’t actually anyone called Sun Tzu who masterminded military strategy, they don’t have an entire religion being followed in their name so haven’t made me read too much into their historicity.

At the time of Jesus’ supposed life and a fair while before, there are lots of accounts of people called Jesus or Iesous (Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is an interpretation from our understanding of the ancient Greek word which means ‘healer’), or Yeshua (Hebrew ישוע) or derivatives from around that time.

Just some of them include: Yeshua bin Nun, Jesus ben Phiabi, Yehoshua ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Yeshua bin Sirach, Jesus ben Pandira, Jesus ben Ananias, Jesus ben Saphat, Jesus ben Gamala, Jesus bin Thebuth…

Some of them were High Priests of Judaism, some were writers, one was an interpreter, some were teachers and opened schools in Greece and Egypt, one is said to be the first to want to open schools to children from the age of 6, another was said to travel extensively as he was always in fear of his life, one was a ‘trouble maker’, another a ‘wonder worker’, another gave away treasures from the temple and one (Ben Pandira) is even claimed in the Talmud to be historical Jesus Christ as we know him but is said to have lived from 106-76BCE.

And there are others. There is a written account of someone called ‘Yeshu the Sorcerer’ who had five disciples and was put to death by the Hasmoneans at Passover in 63BCE.

Another story of someone called Yešu Ben Sṭada who accused of bringing magic back from Egypt in cuts in his flesh who was hanged at Passover in a town called Lod (near Tel Aviv today).

Along with all the other deities who have earlier similar or partly identical stories to the Jesus story that I mentioned earlier on, and all these Jesuses^, I think people took all of these names and stories and merged them together to create the Jesus story of the Bible. Which is why I’m not convinced by the Gospels or those who’ve claimed Jesus’ historicity. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but there’s never been anything I’ve seen that has convinced me, even if the scholars around this are convinced (although not all of them are).
Click to expand...
doff my cap
 
M23 Citizen said:
Like I said further down in the post you quoted me from, ‘And you may say, but there isn’t truly reliable evidence of many people from that time - and you’d be right - but Jesus is supposed to be the most important human that’s ever lived so I’m looking for much more weighted evidence for his existence than anyone else’s’.

And I may have because - despite being an atheist - I think mythologies and the real history around them is very interesting and I’ve done a lot of reading about it.

For example, there’s no evidence of Hebrews being slaves to Egypt. Also, when the Hebrews supposedly escaped from Egypt, crossed a body of water, wandered for 40 years in the desert and then came upon the Promised Land (some time between 1,400-1,200BCE), the entirety of their journey was actually all in Egypt because Egypt between the reigns of Thutmos III and Rameses II went right across the Levant, up past the Euphrates up towards Armenia.
The story of Moses - just like Jesus - is just an amalgamation of numerous older stories from other mythologies, including Egyptian mythology itself.

I haven’t doubted those historical figures because there isn’t a story of Homer making blind men see and lame men walk, there isn’t a story of Pythagoras walking on water and there isn’t a story of Sun Tzu coming back to life after being executed… so even if the Iliac was written a long time after Homer supposedly lived, Pythagoras thought planets sang to each other or there wasn’t actually anyone called Sun Tzu who masterminded military strategy, they don’t have an entire religion being followed in their name so haven’t made me read too much into their historicity.

At the time of Jesus’ supposed life and a fair while before, there are lots of accounts of people called Jesus or Iesous (Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is an interpretation from our understanding of the ancient Greek word which means ‘healer’), or Yeshua (Hebrew ישוע) or derivatives from around that time.

Just some of them include: Yeshua bin Nun, Jesus ben Phiabi, Yehoshua ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Yeshua bin Sirach, Jesus ben Pandira, Jesus ben Ananias, Jesus ben Saphat, Jesus ben Gamala, Jesus bin Thebuth…

Some of them were High Priests of Judaism, some were writers, one was an interpreter, some were teachers and opened schools in Greece and Egypt, one is said to be the first to want to open schools to children from the age of 6, another was said to travel extensively as he was always in fear of his life, one was a ‘trouble maker’, another a ‘wonder worker’, another gave away treasures from the temple and one (Ben Pandira) is even claimed in the Talmud to be historical Jesus Christ as we know him but is said to have lived from 106-76BCE.

And there are others. There is a written account of someone called ‘Yeshu the Sorcerer’ who had five disciples and was put to death by the Hasmoneans at Passover in 63BCE.

Another story of someone called Yešu Ben Sṭada who accused of bringing magic back from Egypt in cuts in his flesh who was hanged at Passover in a town called Lod (near Tel Aviv today).

Along with all the other deities who have earlier similar or partly identical stories to the Jesus story that I mentioned earlier on, and all these Jesuses^, I think people took all of these names and stories and merged them together to create the Jesus story of the Bible. Which is why I’m not convinced by the Gospels or those who’ve claimed Jesus’ historicity. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but there’s never been anything I’ve seen that has convinced me, even if the scholars around this are convinced (although not all of them are).
Click to expand...
Here's something to make you happy and prove you wrong then :-)

Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Just a coincidence this fella was a prominent member btw

en.m.wikipedia.org

John Dominic Crossan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
M23 Citizen said:
Like I said further down in the post you quoted me from, ‘And you may say, but there isn’t truly reliable evidence of many people from that time - and you’d be right - but Jesus is supposed to be the most important human that’s ever lived so I’m looking for much more weighted evidence for his existence than anyone else’s’.

And I may have because - despite being an atheist - I think mythologies and the real history around them is very interesting and I’ve done a lot of reading about it.

For example, there’s no evidence of Hebrews being slaves to Egypt. Also, when the Hebrews supposedly escaped from Egypt, crossed a body of water, wandered for 40 years in the desert and then came upon the Promised Land (some time between 1,400-1,200BCE), the entirety of their journey was actually all in Egypt because Egypt between the reigns of Thutmos III and Rameses II went right across the Levant, up past the Euphrates up towards Armenia.
The story of Moses - just like Jesus - is just an amalgamation of numerous older stories from other mythologies, including Egyptian mythology itself.

I haven’t doubted those historical figures because there isn’t a story of Homer making blind men see and lame men walk, there isn’t a story of Pythagoras walking on water and there isn’t a story of Sun Tzu coming back to life after being executed… so even if the Iliac was written a long time after Homer supposedly lived, Pythagoras thought planets sang to each other or there wasn’t actually anyone called Sun Tzu who masterminded military strategy, they don’t have an entire religion being followed in their name so haven’t made me read too much into their historicity.

At the time of Jesus’ supposed life and a fair while before, there are lots of accounts of people called Jesus or Iesous (Greek Ἰησοῦς, which is an interpretation from our understanding of the ancient Greek word which means ‘healer’), or Yeshua (Hebrew ישוע) or derivatives from around that time.

Just some of them include: Yeshua bin Nun, Jesus ben Phiabi, Yehoshua ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Yeshua bin Sirach, Jesus ben Pandira, Jesus ben Ananias, Jesus ben Saphat, Jesus ben Gamala, Jesus bin Thebuth…

Some of them were High Priests of Judaism, some were writers, one was an interpreter, some were teachers and opened schools in Greece and Egypt, one is said to be the first to want to open schools to children from the age of 6, another was said to travel extensively as he was always in fear of his life, one was a ‘trouble maker’, another a ‘wonder worker’, another gave away treasures from the temple and one (Ben Pandira) is even claimed in the Talmud to be historical Jesus Christ as we know him but is said to have lived from 106-76BCE.

And there are others. There is a written account of someone called ‘Yeshu the Sorcerer’ who had five disciples and was put to death by the Hasmoneans at Passover in 63BCE.

Another story of someone called Yešu Ben Sṭada who accused of bringing magic back from Egypt in cuts in his flesh who was hanged at Passover in a town called Lod (near Tel Aviv today).

Along with all the other deities who have earlier similar or partly identical stories to the Jesus story that I mentioned earlier on, and all these Jesuses^, I think people took all of these names and stories and merged them together to create the Jesus story of the Bible. Which is why I’m not convinced by the Gospels or those who’ve claimed Jesus’ historicity. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but there’s never been anything I’ve seen that has convinced me, even if the scholars around this are convinced (although not all of them are).
Click to expand...

Brilliant post and a very interesting read. I love mythology but have only scratched the surface in comparison to the knowledge you have.

What is incredible and fascinating, to me at least, is that in plenty of other topics/subjects that evidence would be sufficient for someone to hold their hands up and say "I was wrong". But in something so emotive and powerful as religion, people refuse to reconsider their beliefs even if the evidence is overwhelming. That's something that should be applauded, but unfortunately over time it has led to the murder of millions of people who get brainwashed into thinking they'll be rewarded for following the book.

I'm trying to think of other topics where people ignore the facts and stick with their opinion. Sport is fairly similar in truth. And the PL charges are pretty much the same.
 
tonea2003 said:
a pretty much discredited seminar which in included the guy who directed basic instinct and total recall was part of it
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I thought you'd be pleased to know about such a critical study, the main point though is that even among sceptical scholars there is universal acceptance of the historical Jesus. The mainstream backlash was predictable and wholly justified in my view. The Christ myth approach is what is utterly discredited of course.
en.wikipedia.org

Christ myth theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Elbow beards said:
Surprised you're quoting a source that states Jesus didn't do all the miracle things that you claim he did. Hmm.
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You shouldn't be, I am aware of the difficulties of my argument and try hard be open about them.
The claim that Jesus didn't exist is clearly wrong though but has gained popular attention in recent decades due to the growth of the Internet.

Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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