Defence conundrum

[Thaksinssoldier]

To focus on the defense, what's pissing me off is Pep hurting us in two ways.

Firstly, these boys will not be here come July. So why try teach them a system they wont be here to play? Other than Stones, they'll all be moved out the door. So if you are going to play them, play to their strengths and build gradually. Mancini took a year of making us boring at the back to solidify it before unleashing the attacking football.

Secondly, if Pep really wants a system for the future, then play the future now! We'd all take it on the chin if it's Maffeo or Tosin in there messing up, as we know there would be a long term goal. But now if they get their chance next season, we have to go through this again at the back.

So for me he either dials it down at the back with Clichy and Aleks etc playing more to their strengths or he benches them and lets the kids learn on the job, at the inevitable expense of points this season, so we'd be far better next year.

 

[Marvin]

Otamendi aside, the rest don't look like they want to defend (and,sadly, he can't). Stones actually ran away from Costa yesterday, he just didn't want to know. The system we played yesterday just needs someone with real pace (Keith Curle would have excelled in that system yesterday). The issue I have is, we are 1-0 up, they're offering very little but we get caught three times with NINE players in the top third of the pitch. Now, there's playing a high line and there's football suicide. The issue over Taylor not giving decisions is in danger of masking the real issue, in that it looks like we don't want to win 1-0. We have no defensive discipline whatsoever. Out of the starting outfield 10, there is only Otamendi who is not better going forwards than backwards or has the word defender anywhere near a description of him. Look at Kante yesterday. I didn't hardly see him in our half, a role which not one of our players (since NDJ) have looked vaguely interested in playing. All that being said, if we are winning 3 or 4 nil after an hour (which we should have been yesterday) much of this discussion is rendered irrelevant.

Agree entirely. Otamendi at least wants to defend. He stopped a lot of attacks yesterday and yes he was lefted stranded to fatal effect on a couple of occasions, but Stones just backs off and backs off. Might as well not be there.

This game wasn't a one off. Everything we've seen in previous games came home to roost: pathetic defending. weak keeper, and a mis-firing forward line which needs 5 chances per goal.

KDB was guilty of a bad miss, but I felt sorry for him. he created some fantastic chances but no one on end of crosses. Kelechi should be playing. Now he will get his chance

 

[daztrueblue91]

I agree mate.

What i will say is that both Costa and hazard where brilliant yesterday and sometimes you just hold your hands up but we didn't compete with them at all and that is just not on.

The way our team set up yesterday was perfect for Costa and Hazard. I'd have been more surprized if they had played shit considering how easy it was for them.

The ease at which Chelsea countered our back 3 was ridiculous and Pep should be ashamed of allowing that to happen. Hazard's goal you can understand as we had to commit men forward as we were 2-1 down. However, Chelsea were having similar counter attacks whist we were 1-0 up. They would defend their box, win the second ball, play one simple pass and either Willian, Hazard or Costa was away.

I couldn't believe what I was watching at times. Just before De Brunye missed that sitter, we had possession deep in Chelsea's half. Aguero and KDB were out on the right wing and the ball got played to Fernandinho who was about 10 yards outside Chelsea's box. The passage of play that followed sums up the lack of intelligence this side has. Sane was hogging the left touchline, Silva was at the edge of the box and Gundogan had made a run into the Chelsea area. Instead of keeping possession, Fernandinho lofts a cross towards Gundogan. Now the probability of Gundogan winning a header against Cahill or Luiz is very slim but to make matters worse, not one City player had dropped back to cover Dinho.

Now our only defensive minded midfielder was stuck in no mans land, Chelsea cleared the ball with ease, Fabregas has the ball with no City midfielder even close to him and picks a simple 20 yard pass to Hazard who is away at our back 3 with Costa and Pedro in support.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Is he? Mane burned him off at Anfield last week. We should give Tosin a chance

We need Kompany back and Jesus to hit the ground running. He must have been gutted watching that yesterday. Joining a team with no spirit. what annoyed me was the attitude of the players at 1-1. You could see them arguing and Chelsea will have sensed blood at 1-1. We just collapsed. The game was still there to fight for. We miss players like Kompany, barry, tevez, De Jong and Toure in his pomp. Then the players knew that they had a goal or two in them with 5 mins to go. This lot are useless.

Mane would burn Sane off.

 

[city saint]

I agree, we could do a lot worse than bringing him back. Alack of pace is catching us out and he can play on the left side if we did go to 3 at the back.

I also thought he copped some unfair flak.he wouldn't be any worse than whats happening now but with his pace he be ideal with the high line

 

[urban genie]

I agree, we could do a lot worse than bringing him back. Alack of pace is catching us out and he can play on the left side if we did go to 3 at the back.

I would agree with that, but also that if necessary Mango did start out as a left back so if we ain't gonna buy one and angelino isn't gonna get a look in I would rather try to see if he could perform there as clichy is off pace now and Alex is shite

 

[Thaksinssoldier]

I also thought he copped some unfair flak.he wouldn't be any worse than whats happening now but with his pace he be ideal with the high line

I said it yesterday, we used to laugh after Chelsea games about how Mangala would own Costa.

 

[Neville Kneville]

The way our team set up yesterday was perfect for Costa and Hazard. I'd have been more surprized if they had played shit considering how easy it was for them.

The ease at which Chelsea countered our back 3 was ridiculous and Pep should be ashamed of allowing that to happen. Hazard's goal you can understand as we had to commit men forward as we were 2-1 down. However, Chelsea were having similar counter attacks whist we were 1-0 up. They would defend their box, win the second ball, play one simple pass and either Willian, Hazard or Costa was away.

I couldn't believe what I was watching at times. Just before De Brunye missed that sitter, we had possession deep in Chelsea's half. Aguero and KDB were out on the right wing and the ball got played to Fernandinho who was about 10 yards outside Chelsea's box. The passage of play that followed sums up the lack of intelligence this side has. Sane was hogging the left touchline, Silva was at the edge of the box and Gundogan had made a run into the Chelsea area. Instead of keeping possession, Fernandinho lofts a cross towards Gundogan. Now the probability of Gundogan winning a header against Cahill or Luiz is very slim but to make matters worse, not one City player had dropped back to cover Dinho.

Now our only defensive minded midfielder was stuck in no mans land, Chelsea cleared the ball with ease, Fabregas has the ball with no City midfielder even close to him and picks a simple 20 yard pass to Hazard who is away at our back 3 with Costa and Pedro in support.

That's not a tactical problem it's a decision making problem.

The key line in that is 'Just before De Brunye missed that sitter'.

Chelsea weren't missing sitters. They were desperately trying to keep us out & as you say, hoping to exploit their one advantage, the counter attack.

That they wre able to win by doing so, is not down to the tactics failling, it's down to the ball not being put in he net when the tactics worked.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I said it yesterday, we used to laugh after Chelsea games about how Mangala would own Costa.

Mangala at his best, is ten times the defender Otamendi is, but he's rarely at his best.

I fully understand why we signed Managala. He is exactly the kind of specimin we need. But unfortunately, he just can't keep it together.

Otamendi can't keep it together either, & has no pace or power to fall back on.

 

[cibaman]

To focus on the defense, what's pissing me off is Pep hurting us in two ways.

Firstly, these boys will not be here come July. So why try teach them a system they wont be here to play? Other than Stones, they'll all be moved out the door. So if you are going to play them, play to their strengths and build gradually. Mancini took a year of making us boring at the back to solidify it before unleashing the attacking football.

Secondly, if Pep really wants a system for the future, then play the future now! We'd all take it on the chin if it's Maffeo or Tosin in there messing up, as we know there would be a long term goal. But now if they get their chance next season, we have to go through this again at the back.

So for me he either dials it down at the back with Clichy and Aleks etc playing more to their strengths or he benches them and lets the kids learn on the job, at the inevitable expense of points this season, so we'd be far better next year.

The rest of the team can't play the way Pep wants them to if the defence are playing a different way. If he leaves it until he has the defenders to play his preferred system, he also has to delay the process of educating the midfield players to play with those defenders in that system.

 

[Thaksinssoldier]

The rest of the team can't play the way Pep wants them to if the defence are playing a different way. If he leaves it until he has the defenders to play his preferred system, he also has to delay the process of educating the midfield players to play with those defenders in that system.

So if that's the case, play the kids who will be here next season.

 

[OB1]

It matters if they dont have the footballing brain to take his instructions in!

I'm not sure a lot of it is about an inability to take instruction but they may forget instructions at times in the heat of battle. It does however take time to learn to do things differently and how much time will vary from player to player.

What I am certain of is that we need new players regardless of who the manager is or what formation and tactics are employed. Yesterday we saw Kolarov, for instance, exposed for pace; it's not his fault he is not very quick but he should and could have done better on his postioning, which Pep can work on with him. He isn't alone in lacking pace at the back and it needs to be addressed in the transfer market.

Pep, imo, has to keep working on implementing his style play because it is the only way to to "perfect" it. You don't hire Pep so that your team can play some other style of play but that doesn't mean he should tune things over time and come up with something that matches his principles and the particular demands of being an English team.

In the meantime, we need a bit of patience. Yesterday was fra tions away from being a very different outcome. Pep had a game plan that involved working Chelsea's left flank heavily and City should have profited from the chances that resulted. Sadly, we saw another opponent profit from packing their defence and counterattacking, which ain't the kind of team I want to watch (style wise).

 

[daztrueblue91]

That's not a tactical problem it's a decision making problem.

The key line in that is 'Just before De Brunye missed that sitter'.

Chelsea weren't missing sitters. They were desperately trying to keep us out & as you say, hoping to exploit their one advantage, the counter attack.

That they wre able to win by doing so, is not down to the tactics failling, it's down to the ball not being put in he net when the tactics worked.

Chelsea won the game yesterday because they exploited their one advantage. Regardless of us not putting the game to bed, we should not be conceding 3 goals to a team who's sole aim is to counter attack when we are 1-0 up. Conte got his tactics spot on because Pep allowed him to.

On the other hand, for the first 55 mins Pep got his tactics spot on. The difference was that Pep didn't adapt. Funnily enough two of our best chances in the second half came from us on the counter attack. KDB hitting the bar and the chance where Sane burst through and played it to KDB.

It's a recurring theme this season that we create a lot of chances and don't score them but what follows is the real issue. We seem to chase the game even more instead of managing the game. We did exactly the same against Middlesborough. We don't need to win every game 4-0. Sometimes the best tactic is to let the opposition come onto us and see what they have got. Let's exploit the space they leave in behind.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Chelsea won the game yesterday because they exploited their one advantage. Regardless of us not putting the game to bed, we should not be conceding 3 goals to a team who's sole aim is to counter attack when we are 1-0 up. Conte got his tactics spot on because Pep allowed him to.

On the other hand, for the first 55 mins Pep got his tactics spot on. The difference was that Pep didn't adapt. Funnily enough two of our best chances in the second half came from us on the counter attack. KDB hitting the bar and the chance where Sane burst through and played it to KDB.

It's a recurring theme this season that we create a lot of chances and don't score them but what follows is the real issue. We seem to chase the game even more instead of managing the game. We did exactly the same against Middlesborough. We don't need to win every game 4-0. Sometimes the best tactic is to let the opposition come onto us and see what they have got. Let's exploit the space they leave in behind.

We are just as vulnerable when 'managing the game'. The oppo will get a chance because our defenders are shit. If we score a few, it doesn't matter.

There is no set method teams have for scoring against City. It just happens that Chelsea scored on the counter. Spurs didn't. We were all there, being shit. Same with Celtic. Boro, everyone back boot the ball in, goal. Stones backpass, another goal. Utd in the cup, Otamendi jumps with his back to the ball, Kolarov falls asleep, goal.

Burnley we escaped Pep went full out to keep a clean sheet but they still got a clear chance in the last seconds. Burnley missed. Chelsea didn't.

If you swap Costa for Aguero, yesterday we win, easily. Same tactics. If you swap Otamendi for Kompany, Costa doesn't score. Same tactics.

We are conceding every kind of goal, because our defenders are shit & they are coming under pressure because our forwards keep missing chances.

The bit Pep can influence, defending corners etc, we have done amazingly well, with a team of shortarses.

He can't polish a turd & his biggest mistake is probably in thinking he could (and us thinking he could) & now he has to in certain positions. We need to take the pressure off the back 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.

Otherwise, they will concede goals. We can do that if we get the other stuff right.

 

[Tom_mcfc]

Our "defence" is shite

 

[prestonibbo_mcfc]

Our "defence" is shite

Is the bottom line. The players in it, don't defend simple as. Fucking Hazard's goal yesterday,
3 of them marking space and no one picking him up. Fucking criminal at Sunday level ,let alone
this one.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

He's not asking anyone to do something they can't and tinkering shouldn't matter - they are learning his style of positional play and if everyone just did the job he's coached them to do, it doesn't matter who the other 2/3 defenders are.

Right. The defensive errors that are leading to one concession after another, in the only effort some teams have on our goal, are basic errors. Clichy v Lukaku, Whoever it was v Costa yesterday. And the goals from Willian and Hazard were scored when defenders were outpaced. I suppose asking players to run fast when they can't . . . . . . . . . . . .!

 

[daztrueblue91]

We are just as vulnerable when 'managing the game'. The oppo will get a chance because our defenders are shit. If we score a few, it doesn't matter.

There is no set method teams have for scoring against City. It just happens that Chelsea scored on the counter. Spurs didn't. We were all there, being shit. Same with Celtic. Boro, everyone back boot the ball in, goal. Stones backpass, another goal. Utd in the cup, Otamendi jumps with his back to the ball, Kolarov falls asleep, goal.

Burnley we escaped Pep went full out to keep a clean sheet but they still got a clear chance in the last seconds. Burnley missed. Chelsea didn't.

If you swap Costa for Aguero, yesterday we win, easily. Same tactics. If you swap Otamendi for Kompany, Costa doesn't score. Same tactics.

We are conceding every kind of goal, because our defenders are shit & they are coming under pressure because our forwards keep missing chances.

The bit Pep can influence, defending corners etc, we have done amazingly well, with a team of shortarses.

He can't polish a turd & his biggest mistake is probably in thinking he could (and us thinking he could) & now he has to in certain positions. We need to take the pressure off the back 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.

Otherwise, they will concede goals. We can do that if we get the other stuff right.

What Pep can do is adapt his system to try and minimise the shortcomings he has in certain players.

I don't for a second believe that Otamendi is anywhere near as bad as you suggest he is, however if he is so poor, then surely Pep needs to sort out a system where our CBs will not be exposed constantly.

I keep reading that Pep doesn't have the players he needs to play his system and that's understandable. He's been here a matter of months and has inherited a squad that is not good enough to play at the level he wants. However, what is unacceptable is forcing them players to play a system they struggle with. Pellegrini did that at times and got absolutely slated on here.

No City fan would want Pep to abandon his long term principles. We brought him in to get us to that level. Though it would be nice to see him adapt to get the best from this current team.

 

[OB1]

They were both excellent & would have caused any defence problems. But the goals, were very defendable, as are most we are conceding.

And two, three years ago, Aguero would have had 4 on his own at the other end with that many chances & positions, thus Chelsea would probably have already taken Hazard off.

Amongst all the doom & gloom & shit defending, we opened up Chelsea like nobody has seen yesterday. We then fucked it up. But that shouldn't be forgotten. We had the game, well & truly.

The last time we won the title, they absolutely dicked us in the league game & we looked like fucking amateurs. We won the league.

This was much, much better than that.

I agree.

I'm not a fan of three at the back per se but I have an open mind. Whichever way you look at it, Pep's problem seems to be very much that he does not have the full backs / wing backs that he needs. I prefer two CB's with the pivote dropping in to make a virtual three and two full backs that can move inside into midfield.

I am sure Dinho could play RB but is so valuable elsewhere. If Delph could ever get fit, he might work as a right back in that secanrio.

One good purchase in January could make a big difference be it a full back, centre back or pivote; two could be immense but getting the right players then is so so difficult.

I always prioritise technique but I hope Pep asks for some players that can also bring more physicality and aggression to the party, which just shortens the potential shopping list.

 

[OB1]

What Pep can do is adapt his system to try and minimise the shortcomings he has in certain players.

I don't for a second believe that Otamendi is anywhere near as bad as you suggest he is, however if he is so poor, then surely Pep needs to sort out a system where our CBs will not be exposed constantly.

I keep reading that Pep doesn't have the players he needs to play his system and that's understandable. He's been here a matter of months and has inherited a squad that is not good enough to play at the level he wants. However, what is unacceptable is forcing them players to play a system they struggle with. Pellegrini did that at times and got absolutely slated on here.

No City fan would want Pep to abandon his long term principles. We brought him in to get us to that level. Though it would be nice to see him adapt to get the best from this current team.

The problem with Ota is that he does do plenty of good work but still makes too many costly errors: he needs to play with more composure but can Pep teach that?