Defensive Midfield Targets/Options

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately it is a ramble. An attempt at creating a term for a player who has waning skills. A defensive midfielder has to be able to do just that, defend. That means to be aware of and make covering runs and challenges. Yaya can pass he cannot defend. Many fans cannot understand this because they do not watch what is happening off the ball. Try watching at least one match when you do not look at the ball, difficult for some people but can be a revelation.
A serious question, where did you do your coaching badges. ?
 
The role of a pivot:
- to sit in front of the defence, act like a wavebreaker
- distribute the ball to beat the first layer of press, mostly using simple, low-risk passes
- sometimes act as one of CBs in our makeshift back 5.
Pivot needs to be fairly physical and tall as Pep will use uberskilled dwarfs (Silvas) as N8 to control possession and press, aerial ability is a must.
Speed of thought matters more that actual speed/acceleration, so pivot can be more or less slow.
Pivot is going to defend small spaces thanks to tactics/teamwork, so Makelele's (Kante's) ability to run and cover large gaps is simply not needed.
The skillset of such player is in some sense closer to ball-playing CBs than to mids. But the requirements to awareness and ability to pass the ball in small spaces/shield the ball are much higher than in CB's case. You can't just put Pique/Stones there, it won't work properly.
As you can see, this should be quite a unique player (Busquets, Weigl, M.Llorente are good examples, though Weigl isn't physical enough for me). The prototypical player is probably Rijkaard, though Busi has perfected the art of pivot and is a benchmark now.
Interesting post, good reference for discussion.

However, it could be you're forgetting the actual City we've witnessed during Guardiola's 1st season. In that case, I would suggest you go back and watch matches. You will find plenty of material proving you've misjudged our actual needs. I'm referring to situations where we lose the ball high up, with 3F+2AM plus probably a fullback, out of play, that's 5 or 6 players unable to contribute to defense. Opposition goes quickly on the break, the spaces in midfield are HUGE, Ferna suffers or Yaya gets embarrassed. Also referring to sistuations where Ferna (usually or Yaya rarely) moves forward to kill the play in its beginning, but gets it wrong, loses the battle. Again, HUGE spaces in front of the back four and potentially dangerous situations. And so on...

It doesn't matter if those plays led to clear opportunities / goals, that's down to the way the opposition exploited them, what matters is:

we faced plenty of them,
defensive line was exposed.

However, in the 2nd phrase of your post I've highlighted, you leave room for interesting assumptions, but you need to elaborate on this. I think you are "investing" to the certainty of upgrading certain positions in the squad. I do too, the whole forum does. Strong fullbacks with better defensive skills with "speed of thought", as you say, I agree 100%, an absolute must for a Guardiola defender. People able to make the quickest decisions, take the initiative, move forward to kill the play / intercept, before it develops into a dangerous situation. The thing is, defensive behaviour will not inprove significantly if you do not spend time in the training ground, getting the team (ALL versions of the team: rotation) familiar with all kinds of possible situations the moment we lose the ball: how do we defend as an organised defense, how do we operate when caught on the break with 5 (4+1), or 4 or 3 or 2 players left behind. How do we position ourselves when attacking so that we minimise the risk, like preventing / avoiding dangerous situations when losing the ball, and so on, and so on...

During 1st season the emphasis was put on establishing a certain style, a way of playing. The results regarding this have been highly impressive, as far as I am concerned, personally I haven't seen such an improvement in such a small period of time, it was incredible. On the other hand, prioritizing on the team's behaviour WITH the ball, combined with absolutely wrong decisions in the summer transfer window (problems taken care of as we speak, could have been solved a year ago though), lack of knowledge of the PL realities etc etc etc, led to a clearly imballanced team. Which in turn led to lack of confidence and belief (how can you enter the pitch optimistic knowing that however hard you work, no matter how many goals you score, eventually you will concede and lose / not win matches?). To fix this, you obviously need reinforcements, but that's not enough. It's not that simple, never has been. You need to work consistently on the training ground, teaching your players to defend as a unit to all kinds of possible situations. Otherwise we are bound to suffer again. Keeping possession of the ball does not define a viable defensive strategy, because eventually you will lose the god damn thing...

In any case, you will need pace - acceleration in the player for the position you are talking about. And since we're in the Fabinio thread, let's all have in mind that the guy operated in a 2-CM arrangement in Monaco, he wasn't alone in central midfield, there was Bacayoko beside him. I've been watching Ligue 1, Monaco in particular (as well as other clubs), I know him, he's a great player. Nevertheless Guardiola's football is extremely demanding, therefore you will need tactical awareness, you will need a player who is intelligent, tough, determined, effective and you will definitely need all the fucking pace you can get in that position (plus other attributes as well, some of which are mentioned in your post), take my word for it...

Attributing the blunders of a backline consisting of Clichy, Sagna, Zabaleta, Kolarov and Stones to Guardiola's football in general is a mistake. Pep's (or better said, Cruyff's) football is all about managing space, not running and chasing the ball. You don't need to run to get the ball if you're positioned well enough. Squeeze the spaces, problem solved.
If you're frequently conceding counters (like our team this season), it doesn't mean that you have to add runners/sprinters who can defend large gaps, it's the laziest solution possible. No, on the contrary: you have to add/train players that lose the ball as rarely as possible and position themselves well to press the ball without much running. More running/losing of the ball makes Pep's benchmark pressing impossible to use (he has abandoned 'total pressing' with City for obvious reasons, but I bet we'll see it back next season with the addition of B.Silva and other either technical and/or athletic players). That's why it sounds absurd when someone suggests that City would benefit from getting players like Kante, with a lot of fucking pace as you've formulated, - it's the opposite of what Guardiola is going to do.
You need to watch Pep's Barca to get the idea of such defending. Or Cruyff's Dream Team where the same concept can be recognized in a more embryonic state. If you'll ever see Busquets running back regularly to prevent counters, write me, I'll watch it with great interest.
The remark about 'defending small spaces' refers to one of the most famous quotes by Cruyff: "How much space must I defend? If I have to defend this whole garden, I’m the worst. If I have to defend this small area, I’m the best."
Ofc I don't mean that I'm against fast, athletic players, I'm talking about the balance of qualities needed for particular position (sole DM pivot). We'll have serious pace and power with our new rumoured back 5 - cut one of the FBs inside, and you're getting a double pivot to face any counter.
 
Attributing the blunders of a backline consisting of Clichy, Sagna, Zabaleta, Kolarov and Stones to Guardiola's football in general is a mistake. Pep's (or better said, Cruyff's) football is all about managing space, not running and chasing the ball. You don't need to run to get the ball if you're positioned well enough. Squeeze the spaces, problem solved.
If you're frequently conceding counters (like our team this season), it doesn't mean that you have to add runners/sprinters who can defend large gaps, it's the laziest solution possible. No, on the contrary: you have to add/train players that lose the ball as rarely as possible and position themselves well to press the ball without much running. More running/losing of the ball makes Pep's benchmark pressing impossible to use (he has abandoned 'total pressing' with City for obvious reasons, but I bet we'll see it back next season with the addition of B.Silva and other either technical and/or athletic players). That's why it sounds absurd when someone suggests that City would benefit from getting players like Kante, with a lot of fucking pace as you've formulated, - it's the opposite of what Guardiola is going to do.
You need to watch Pep's Barca to get the idea of such defending. Or Cruyff's Dream Team where the same concept can be recognized in a more embryonic state. If you'll ever see Busquets running back regularly to prevent counters, write me, I'll watch it with great interest.
The remark about 'defending small spaces' refers to one of the most famous quotes by Cruyff: "How much space must I defend? If I have to defend this whole garden, I’m the worst. If I have to defend this small area, I’m the best."
Ofc I don't mean that I'm against fast, athletic players, I'm talking about the balance of qualities needed for particular position (sole DM pivot). We'll have serious pace and power with our new rumoured back 5 - cut one of the FBs inside, and you're getting a double pivot to face any counter.
Very interesting debate and a lot of good points. I don't think there is a typical DM these days ( pivot " has to be tall and fast"). Over the years we have seen a lot of very effective different DM's. For example, Barry, Viera, Pirlo, Kante all have different attributes but have all been outstanding DM's in the past. It depends on what other players are in the team/ what system you playing etc.
 
I really hope City goes after Diawara next season kid ticks every box Pep needs in a DM
 
Gundogan is not DM. he's number 8 type player, more likely a deep-lying playmaker. he will be destroyed physically, if he play as a lone pivot. Carvalho doesn't have pace, neither speed of thought. his positioning is terrible. City need a midfield general, someone like Yaya, Vieira, Busquets or Rijkaard. this position so crucial, because it's tied the team together. Fabinho is the closest one.
 
Attributing the blunders of a backline consisting of Clichy, Sagna, Zabaleta, Kolarov and Stones to Guardiola's football in general is a mistake. Pep's (or better said, Cruyff's) football is all about managing space, not running and chasing the ball. You don't need to run to get the ball if you're positioned well enough. Squeeze the spaces, problem solved.
If you're frequently conceding counters (like our team this season), it doesn't mean that you have to add runners/sprinters who can defend large gaps, it's the laziest solution possible. No, on the contrary: you have to add/train players that lose the ball as rarely as possible and position themselves well to press the ball without much running. More running/losing of the ball makes Pep's benchmark pressing impossible to use (he has abandoned 'total pressing' with City for obvious reasons, but I bet we'll see it back next season with the addition of B.Silva and other either technical and/or athletic players). That's why it sounds absurd when someone suggests that City would benefit from getting players like Kante, with a lot of fucking pace as you've formulated, - it's the opposite of what Guardiola is going to do.
You need to watch Pep's Barca to get the idea of such defending. Or Cruyff's Dream Team where the same concept can be recognized in a more embryonic state. If you'll ever see Busquets running back regularly to prevent counters, write me, I'll watch it with great interest.
The remark about 'defending small spaces' refers to one of the most famous quotes by Cruyff: "How much space must I defend? If I have to defend this whole garden, I’m the worst. If I have to defend this small area, I’m the best."
Ofc I don't mean that I'm against fast, athletic players, I'm talking about the balance of qualities needed for particular position (sole DM pivot). We'll have serious pace and power with our new rumoured back 5 - cut one of the FBs inside, and you're getting a double pivot to face any counter.
So are you saying that we don't actually need a player like Fabinho in the system Pep wants us to play? I have been wondering if I was completely wrong when thinking we needed a player like Fabinho for the central defensive midfield position to make sure we are not relying entirely on Yaya and Fernandinho for this.
 
So are you saying that we don't actually need a player like Fabinho in the system Pep wants us to play? I have been wondering if I was completely wrong when thinking we needed a player like Fabinho for the central defensive midfield position to make sure we are not relying entirely on Yaya and Fernandinho for this.
I didn't even mention Fabinho, we were discussing key traits/functions of a player suitable for City's DM position. If Fabinho can do that, why not? Very weird reply.
 

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